[Noisebridge-discuss] anti-anonymity proposals

Sat Nov 16 02:09:23 UTC 2013

For the record, THIS is what "social awkwardness" looks like.  Not cutesy
"gosh I don't know how to talk about anything but tech" feet shuffling,
 but "well I'm gonna come up with a theory that you're just making victim
of yourself if you complain about harassment to the community, instead of
dealing with it alone..... perhaps you should tell me about your
experiences, but tsk, you shouldn't be so angry, it's not good for you
women to be angry."

Jim, you're gunning for title of most stunningly socially oblivious person
in the space, as the responses here might finally illustrate to you.  You
might want to take some time to stop pulling social theories out of your
ass, and educate yourself. Most of the time people ignore what you say in
emails on social topics, this one was just way over the line, but that's
probably surprised you. You always seem so incredulous and confused when
people talk about harassment....

I'll point out that back on Weise St, I asserted that a less In-Crowd
member was uncomfortable with the hair-touching issue we had, and a new
person faces a much higher barrier to assert "back off" warnings and
personal space barriers, let alone reach out for help in discouraging the
harassing party... and one of our own "founders" laughed it off with "well,
maybe we don't need that kind of thin-skinned person here".

This kind of "lol harden the fuck up" attitude is not always necessary, and
it always screws over the new people, and the socially disadvantaged. I
suspect it also poisoned the well against having a healthier
harassment-handling culture right from the beginning.

- Ceren E.
(oh hey more starter fluid, WHEE)

On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 7:14 PM, Jeffrey Carl Faden <jeffreyatw at gmail.com>wrote:

> Just thought I'd throw in my two cents and say that this sort of
> incorrectness in regards to correctly dealing with harassment is what fuels
> my ennui toward Noisebridge. The idea that individual incidents have no
> bearing on how the community should conduct itself is quite off-base.
>
> One of the reasons I teach my class is because I want to attract new
> people to Noisebridge (which distresses me since so many new students have
> been asking me to how to find members to allow them to remain in the
> space). I'd wager that half of my new students are fe^H^Hwomen, and if I
> can't guarantee that a support system will be in place for them when
> they're on their own, then I can't see why I continue teaching at
> Noisebridge in the first place.
>
> On a positive note, I am happy to see that no one has recently provided
> any pull requests for Noisebridge's anti-harassment policy. That must mean
> that we're okay with it and that it will continue to be upheld without
> incident.
>
> Jeffrey
>
> On Nov 15, 2013, at 11:13 AM, jim <jim at systemateka.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >    Thank you for your directness. I have
> > taken time to write directly to your comments.
> >
> >    I cannot see how wanting to protect tools,
> > mine or yours or those donated to Noisebridge,
> > is a bad thing; seems good to me, even
> > necessary for us all to use the space well.
> >    (We have not discontinued the build-out
> > phase, so we should still be following the
> > conventions we established until we finish
> > the build-out; my guess is that no one has
> > given any thought to this; I believe we
> > should still be in build-out phase, as
> > there are many things that should be done.)
> >
> >    Attendance at meetings has explicitly
> > been noted as unessential for participation:
> > people are different, with different
> > schedules and needs, and for some attendance
> > is difficult.
> >    I'm one; the primary reason for my lack
> > of attendance is my need for sleep; 8 PM
> > might seem early to most people, but for me
> > it's late.
> >
> >    Generally, I do not mind transients: some
> > I like, and a few I like a lot; they're
> > people, after all.
> >    Thieves I dislike; drunks and hop-heads I
> > dislike a lot.
> >
> >    As to harassment issues, transients have
> > suffered harassment, and I have tried to defend
> > them. Some people have been perceived as
> > non-hackers and so harassed; and them, too,
> > I've tried to defend.
> >    As to females being harassed, for cases of
> > crude coppings of feels, I dislike taht female
> > turning to the community for support; I would
> > eagerly defend any female who hauled off and
> > slugged whoever copped a feel or to go get some
> > friends and return to verbally educate the
> > offender: it's dis-empowering to perceive one's
> > self as a victim and turn to a community for
> > support for what is an individual incident.
> >    There will be no way fully to suppress such
> > actions taken by horney and inconsiderate
> > personages, policies and rules and committee
> > resolutions aside (far, far aside, I hope).
> >    There are other forms of female harassment
> > that are subtler: I'd like to understand the
> > specifics, because I'm much in favor of having
> > all kinds of people able to breath the same air
> > (including seeming non-hackers, homeless,
> > females, those of alternate sexual orientations,
> > old, very young, every kind of background...).
> >
> >    Please ask yourself if you are prone to
> > express yourself when you believe you have the
> > "high ground" and can properly scold others. I.e.,
> > are you living too much with anger?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 2013-11-15 at 13:16 -0500, Ceren Ercen wrote:
> >> In This Thread:
> >>
> >>
> >> a bunch of people who don't attend meetings and don't give a shit
> >> about (or aren't personally affected by) the problem bitch about
> >> attempts to address it.
> >>
> >>
> >> (potentially flawed attempted, but uh, ATTEMPTS. you know, the thing
> >> where you do the work, take the criticism, and go to all the meetings,
> >> and write out the proposals.)
> >>
> >>
> >> None of you even halfway tried to parse that this shouldn't affect
> >> pseudo-anonymous membership, you just started moaning.
> >>
> >>
> >> Jim, you're particularly anti-constructive when you're not personally
> >> affected. The only time you give half a crap about transients is when
> >> they steal tools. I think I remember you trying to make a policy about
> >> a mini room becoming a locked supply closet for only your electrician
> >> stuff, when you were concerned about it. But dealing with serious
> >> harassment issues? They don't exist to you, you're just
> >> mister-sit-in-the-road-and-block.
> >>
> >>
> >> Frantisek, you explicitly broke the rules to sneakily live in NB for a
> >> significant amount of time, and then charmed your way around censure
> >> and banning. And you've don't feel you've lost any moral high-road you
> >> are trying to sling around with "shoulds" and "shouldn'ts" of
> >> membership and problematic presences in the space? That's ballsy.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> - Ceren, uselessly telling people to shut up from across the country.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 11:57 AM, Jacob Appelbaum
> >> <jacob at appelbaum.net> wrote:
> >>        Jake:
> >>> I agree with you that members of noisebridge should not have
> >>        to identify
> >>> themselves online in this way, and I am willing to
> >>        proxy-block on your
> >>> behalf and on my own volition as well.  Although i suspect
> >>        there will be
> >>> plenty of other people to block it without me.
> >>
> >>
> >>        Thank you - please do so on my behalf - we should not have a
> >>        membership
> >>        purge by shitty policy trick. It is awful enough to
> >>        effectively remove
> >>        anonymity from those in the space, it is even worse to force a
> >>        status
> >>        symbol or affiliation from people.
> >>
> >>        All the best,
> >>        Jake
> >>
> >>        _______________________________________________
> >>        Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >>        Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >>        https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>
>
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