[Noisebridge-discuss] Fwd: Re: anti-anonymity proposals
rachel lyra hospodar
rachelyra at gmail.com
Mon Nov 18 20:56:39 UTC 2013
Here is an example of jim being dismissive on this thread. He sent it to me
privately and I was ignoring it. Full email incl below.
> It seems to me that you have no idea what I've said. This is my last
reply to you.
I have done my best to read his emails and articulate why my ideas are so
different than his, why his very words were so wildly inappropriate. Given
that Jim has previously hired me for work, invited me to his house, and
subsequently been a reluctant part of a public discussion with me about Bad
Touch And Respecting Boundaries, I was perhaps expecting my viewpoint to be
relevant.
The problem i see is that jim believes he is being misunderstood, when in
fact he is often being understood very well. I think he is conflating his
intention with his language and with his impact. They are three very
separate things. I repeatedly see him writing that he is being
misunderstood, and repeatedly read in his writing that he believes others
are overreacting and ignoring what he is writing.
I think that many people have a cognitive block around accepting that the
impact of their words or actions was very different than intended, or that
their stated intention is often directly contravened by their words and
actions.
Without the willingness to admit one's own need to change, there is no real
way to engage with people who have a problem with your behavior.
R.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "jim" <jim at systemateka.com>
Date: Nov 16, 2013 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] anti-anonymity proposals
To: "rachel lyra hospodar" <rachelyra at gmail.com>
Cc:
>
>
> (replying personally so's not to burden
> the list)
>
> It seems to me that you have no idea of what
> I've said. This is my last reply to you.
>
>
>
> On Sat, 2013-11-16 at 14:42 -0800, rachel lyra hospodar wrote:
> > Responses Inline. God save us all.
> >
> > On Nov 15, 2013 8:36 PM, "jim" <jim at systemateka.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > There are so many problems with what you
> > > > have written that I honestly believe you need to hire someone to
> > help
> > > > you grok what the fuck.
> >
> > I continue to believe you would benefit from seeking professional help
> > on this matter.
> >
> > > strong community. My view is that people have run
> > > to the community prematurely, to their own detriment.
> >
> > Have you thought to try, instead of defending your opinions, to query
> > & seek to understand why people have felt that it is best to act this
> > way?
> >
> > > >
> > > > I came to Noisebridge and found a huge community of technically
> > > > engaged wonderful hacker friends who bent over backwards to teach
> > me
> > > > how to work in hardware, with zero social expectations or
> > assholery.
> > > JS: me, too.
> > >
> > > > That place is gone.
> > > JS: I'm not sure, there are lots of very fine
> > > people still at noisebridge.
> > >
> >
> > I AM quite sure, thankyouverymuch, because the experiences I have had
> > at Noisebridge over the last 2 years are so wildly different than the
> > previous two. Perhaps if instead of dismissing this point of view you
> > were to examine it and seek to understand why someone might hold it,
> > you would be able to become less confused about why people are
> > FREAKING THE FUCK OUT about things like BEING GRABBED OR ASSAULTED.
> >
> > > > Perhaps 2169 will continue but a community where the old hands
> > present
> > > > think assault should be dealt with in isolation,
> > > JS: assault should not be dealt with in isolation.
> > >
> > > > and the old hands absent feel entitled to weigh in against reform
> > > > measures aimed at REDUCING INCIDENCES OF ASSAULT without
> > constructive
> > > > input, is no place I want to support.
> > > JS: I'm against formality in general; I'm for
> > > collaboration, affection, acceptance, mutual
> > > support; I think having policies is a dangerous
> > > practice, partly because the fact of the policy
> > > substitutes for understanding and action
> > > appropriate to situations, partly because the
> > > policy may, unfortunately, be seen as a
> > > substitute for one's own action and one's own
> > > sense of self-worth.
> >
> > Instead of undermining the efforts of people seeking to SECURE THEIR
> > PERSONAL SAFETY you could try to work towards building the kind of
> > understanding you say should be used instead of policies... then
> > perhaps there wouldn't be so many people seeking to establish
> > policies.
> >
> > R.
> >
> > >
> > > > R.
> > > >
> > > > On Nov 15, 2013 2:29 PM, "Snail" <snailtsunami at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 11:13 AM, jim
> > <jim at systemateka.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > As to females being harassed, for cases of
> > > > crude coppings of feels, I dislike taht female
> > > > turning to the community for support; I would
> > > > eagerly defend any female who hauled off and
> > > > slugged whoever copped a feel or to go get some
> > > > friends and return to verbally educate the
> > > > offender: it's dis-empowering to perceive one's
> > > > self as a victim and turn to a community for
> > > > support for what is an individual incident.
> > > >
> > > > Whoa - whoa whoa whoa - whoaaaaa...
> > > >
> > > > Time out - did you really just say that women who get
> > groped
> > > > ("cases of crude coppings of feels") should not ask the
> > > > community to help them out? And you believe that it's
> > > > disempowering somehow??
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > And that people should just punch people or deal with it
> > on
> > > > their own? Is this really what you're suggesting?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > There will be no way fully to suppress such
> > > > actions taken by horney and inconsiderate
> > > > personages, policies and rules and committee
> > > > resolutions aside (far, far aside, I hope).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I can't even. Here's a good way to suppress the actions of
> > > > "horney" or inconsiderate people: never let them back in
> > > > Noisebridge because that's a terrible excuse for their
> > > > actions!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Please ask yourself if you are prone to
> > > > express yourself when you believe you have the
> > > > "high ground" and can properly scold others. I.e.,
> > > > are you living too much with anger?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > With the rage of a thousand burning stars.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > TO EVERYONE ELSE READING THIS - There are lots of people
> > in
> > > > the community at large who will help you out if someone is
> > > > creeping on you or worse, whether you are "taht females"
> > or
> > > > just a plain ol' human being! Don't let what Jim says
> > dissuade
> > > > you from reporting harassment or assault or pointing out
> > > > creepers! This is not an opinion everyone here carries.
> > Please
> > > > don't ever feel like it's your fault or that you're
> > required
> > > > to punch people - it's a valid and rational response to
> > remove
> > > > yourself from a dangerous situation and try to sort things
> > out
> > > > later from a safe place rather than confront your
> > > > harasser/assaulter. If someone is creeping on you, they
> > are
> > > > pretty much always creeping on OTHERS, too, so you are not
> > > > alone or stuck in some isolated personal incident! And as
> > a
> > > > community we can try to make Noisebridge a safer place for
> > > > everyone.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Also, women really appreciate being called women and not
> > > > "females". Do you go around saying "the males" when
> > referring
> > > > to men? Probably not.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Angry forever,
> > > > Snail
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > -Snailssnailssnailssnailssnailssnailssnails
> > > > ............. _ at y
> > > > http://obamaischeckingyouremail.tumblr.com/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> > > > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> > > >
> > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
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