[Noisebridge-discuss] Fwd: Re: anti-anonymity proposals
Rachel McConnell
rachel at xtreme.com
Mon Nov 18 23:05:44 UTC 2013
<headdesk/>
Jim, just because I call myself Rachel1.0, does NOT MEAN Rachel Hospodar
is Rachel 2.0! She gets to decide herself what she wants to be called.
Jeez.
On 11/18/13 1:26 PM, jim wrote:
>
> Rachel 2.0 is correct. I have dismissed her.
> I stand by my claim that she seems to have no
> idea what I've said, and because of my feeling
> I believe there is no point for me to engage
> discussion. It seems to me she is not open to
> my wrong thoughts or my right ones.
>
> As to that I replied to her privately, I
> prefaced my reply explaining that I did not
> want to burden the list: my wish to terminate
> discussion with her had no bearing on the
> other discussions in the thread.
>
>
>
> On Mon, 2013-11-18 at 12:56 -0800, rachel lyra hospodar wrote:
>> Here is an example of jim being dismissive on this thread. He sent it
>> to me privately and I was ignoring it. Full email incl below.
>>
>>> It seems to me that you have no idea what I've said. This is my last
>> reply to you.
>>
>> I have done my best to read his emails and articulate why my ideas are
>> so different than his, why his very words were so wildly
>> inappropriate. Given that Jim has previously hired me for work,
>> invited me to his house, and subsequently been a reluctant part of a
>> public discussion with me about Bad Touch And Respecting Boundaries, I
>> was perhaps expecting my viewpoint to be relevant.
>>
>> The problem i see is that jim believes he is being misunderstood, when
>> in fact he is often being understood very well. I think he is
>> conflating his intention with his language and with his impact. They
>> are three very separate things. I repeatedly see him writing that he
>> is being misunderstood, and repeatedly read in his writing that he
>> believes others are overreacting and ignoring what he is writing.
>>
>> I think that many people have a cognitive block around accepting that
>> the impact of their words or actions was very different than intended,
>> or that their stated intention is often directly contravened by their
>> words and actions.
>>
>> Without the willingness to admit one's own need to change, there is no
>> real way to engage with people who have a problem with your behavior.
>>
>> R.
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: "jim" <jim at systemateka.com>
>> Date: Nov 16, 2013 3:48 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] anti-anonymity proposals
>> To: "rachel lyra hospodar" <rachelyra at gmail.com>
>> Cc:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> (replying personally so's not to burden
>>> the list)
>>>
>>> It seems to me that you have no idea of what
>>> I've said. This is my last reply to you.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 2013-11-16 at 14:42 -0800, rachel lyra hospodar wrote:
>>>> Responses Inline. God save us all.
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 15, 2013 8:36 PM, "jim" <jim at systemateka.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There are so many problems with what you
>>>>>> have written that I honestly believe you need to hire someone
>> to
>>>> help
>>>>>> you grok what the fuck.
>>>>
>>>> I continue to believe you would benefit from seeking professional
>> help
>>>> on this matter.
>>>>
>>>>> strong community. My view is that people have run
>>>>> to the community prematurely, to their own detriment.
>>>>
>>>> Have you thought to try, instead of defending your opinions, to
>> query
>>>> & seek to understand why people have felt that it is best to act
>> this
>>>> way?
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I came to Noisebridge and found a huge community of
>> technically
>>>>>> engaged wonderful hacker friends who bent over backwards to
>> teach
>>>> me
>>>>>> how to work in hardware, with zero social expectations or
>>>> assholery.
>>>>> JS: me, too.
>>>>>
>>>>>> That place is gone.
>>>>> JS: I'm not sure, there are lots of very fine
>>>>> people still at noisebridge.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I AM quite sure, thankyouverymuch, because the experiences I have
>> had
>>>> at Noisebridge over the last 2 years are so wildly different than
>> the
>>>> previous two. Perhaps if instead of dismissing this point of view
>> you
>>>> were to examine it and seek to understand why someone might hold
>> it,
>>>> you would be able to become less confused about why people are
>>>> FREAKING THE FUCK OUT about things like BEING GRABBED OR
>> ASSAULTED.
>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps 2169 will continue but a community where the old hands
>>>> present
>>>>>> think assault should be dealt with in isolation,
>>>>> JS: assault should not be dealt with in isolation.
>>>>>
>>>>>> and the old hands absent feel entitled to weigh in against
>> reform
>>>>>> measures aimed at REDUCING INCIDENCES OF ASSAULT without
>>>> constructive
>>>>>> input, is no place I want to support.
>>>>> JS: I'm against formality in general; I'm for
>>>>> collaboration, affection, acceptance, mutual
>>>>> support; I think having policies is a dangerous
>>>>> practice, partly because the fact of the policy
>>>>> substitutes for understanding and action
>>>>> appropriate to situations, partly because the
>>>>> policy may, unfortunately, be seen as a
>>>>> substitute for one's own action and one's own
>>>>> sense of self-worth.
>>>>
>>>> Instead of undermining the efforts of people seeking to SECURE
>> THEIR
>>>> PERSONAL SAFETY you could try to work towards building the kind of
>>>> understanding you say should be used instead of policies... then
>>>> perhaps there wouldn't be so many people seeking to establish
>>>> policies.
>>>>
>>>> R.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> R.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Nov 15, 2013 2:29 PM, "Snail" <snailtsunami at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 11:13 AM, jim
>>>> <jim at systemateka.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> As to females being harassed, for cases of
>>>>>> crude coppings of feels, I dislike taht female
>>>>>> turning to the community for support; I would
>>>>>> eagerly defend any female who hauled off and
>>>>>> slugged whoever copped a feel or to go get
>> some
>>>>>> friends and return to verbally educate the
>>>>>> offender: it's dis-empowering to perceive
>> one's
>>>>>> self as a victim and turn to a community for
>>>>>> support for what is an individual incident.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Whoa - whoa whoa whoa - whoaaaaa...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Time out - did you really just say that women who get
>>>> groped
>>>>>> ("cases of crude coppings of feels") should not ask
>> the
>>>>>> community to help them out? And you believe that it's
>>>>>> disempowering somehow??
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And that people should just punch people or deal with
>> it
>>>> on
>>>>>> their own? Is this really what you're suggesting?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There will be no way fully to suppress
>> such
>>>>>> actions taken by horney and inconsiderate
>>>>>> personages, policies and rules and committee
>>>>>> resolutions aside (far, far aside, I hope).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can't even. Here's a good way to suppress the
>> actions of
>>>>>> "horney" or inconsiderate people: never let them back
>> in
>>>>>> Noisebridge because that's a terrible excuse for their
>>>>>> actions!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please ask yourself if you are prone to
>>>>>> express yourself when you believe you have the
>>>>>> "high ground" and can properly scold others.
>> I.e.,
>>>>>> are you living too much with anger?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With the rage of a thousand burning stars.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TO EVERYONE ELSE READING THIS - There are lots of
>> people
>>>> in
>>>>>> the community at large who will help you out if
>> someone is
>>>>>> creeping on you or worse, whether you are "taht
>> females"
>>>> or
>>>>>> just a plain ol' human being! Don't let what Jim says
>>>> dissuade
>>>>>> you from reporting harassment or assault or pointing
>> out
>>>>>> creepers! This is not an opinion everyone here
>> carries.
>>>> Please
>>>>>> don't ever feel like it's your fault or that you're
>>>> required
>>>>>> to punch people - it's a valid and rational response
>> to
>>>> remove
>>>>>> yourself from a dangerous situation and try to sort
>> things
>>>> out
>>>>>> later from a safe place rather than confront your
>>>>>> harasser/assaulter. If someone is creeping on you,
>> they
>>>> are
>>>>>> pretty much always creeping on OTHERS, too, so you are
>> not
>>>>>> alone or stuck in some isolated personal incident! And
>> as
>>>> a
>>>>>> community we can try to make Noisebridge a safer place
>> for
>>>>>> everyone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, women really appreciate being called women and
>> not
>>>>>> "females". Do you go around saying "the males" when
>>>> referring
>>>>>> to men? Probably not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Angry forever,
>>>>>> Snail
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> -Snailssnailssnailssnailssnailssnailssnails
>>>>>> ............. _ at y
>>>>>> http://obamaischeckingyouremail.tumblr.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>
>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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