[Noisebridge-discuss] proposal to increase membership at noisebridge by changing the rules

GtwoG PublicOhOne g2g-public01 at att.net
Tue Oct 15 09:40:05 UTC 2013

Yo Jake-

Sorry, but I don't pander to the culture of soundbites and zero
attention span, which are creations of the Reagan and Bush Jr. regimes

Everyone here knows how to scroll down a page and skim, and choose to
read or not read something.  Calling for a "TL/DR" warning is an insult
to peoples' intelligence.  The whole idea of "TL/DR" is an advertisement
for prideful ignorance.

If you expect to replace capitalism with something other than a cave-man
existence where people merely grunt at each other, you should be
encouraging thoughtful communication, rather than discouraging it. 

And if you disagree with what I have to say, argue the arguement rather
than digressing to meta and promoting willful ignorance.  Otherwise your
claims of dedication to cause, are instead cause for skepticism.

Really: how do you expect to change the culture, if you promote an
attitude of "don't read"...?  The contradiction is glaring.



On 13-10-15-Tue 2:01 AM, Jake wrote:
> Dear GtwoG,
> When writing a long post to a public list, it is helpful to precede
> your message with a summary in the following form:
> tl;dr [punchline and final meaning of your entire long post]
> thank you,
> -jake
> On Mon, 14 Oct 2013, GtwoG PublicOhOne wrote:
>> Jake-
>> Post-capitalism? Realistically we're in the early stages of a
>> social-Darwinist dystopia that worsens as population/consumption
>> overshoot of global resources continues, and ecological impacts
>> multiply. Think "supply and demand applied to the value of human lives,"
>> and don't blame the messenger. Eventually the level of chronic misery
>> hits a breaking point, but then which way does it go?
>> In Europe what we see, right now, as the result of the level of misery
>> produced by the 2008 depression, is the emergence of fascist parties,
>> some with overt Nazi symbolism, often with seats in national
>> parliaments. In the US, the rabid right wing is still strong enough to
>> shut down women's reproductive rights, shut down government, and dictate
>> policy. How do you expect to get from _that_ to post-capitalism?
>> Excellence is about _doing_, not _being_, otherwise charisma becomes a
>> substitute for action. Clearly, in-kind efforts such as teaching,
>> cleaning, making stuff that's of value to others, etc., count as
>> excellence. If someone is doing a hefty share of work and believes that
>> their work should substitute for payment, great. But the history of
>> collectives of all kinds shows clearly that there is a high risk of
>> exploitation by people who do neither, and just go along for the ride:
>> this is one of the leading causes of failure of collectives.
>> Re. "between jobs": That's a euphemism promoted by the powers-that-be
>> (notice that phrase: "the powers" only have to _be_, they don't have to
>> _do_). Call a shovel a shovel: unemployed, under-employed, economic
>> survivalism, near-poverty, poverty, homelessness, down-and-out, flat
>> broke, etc.
>> Re. directing energy toward bringing down the fatcats on Wall Street:
>> And let's not forget the fatcats in Silicon Valley who built the
>> surveillance empire that NSA uses as its source material. In the end,
>> the way to take down the fatcats is to starve them for money and data
>> (starting with easy targets such as boycotting Google and the bankster
>> banks) and to build alternative infrastructure (peoples' economic
>> empowerment).
>> Hackerspaces are part of the alternative infrastructure, along with
>> cooperatives and collectives of all kinds, credit unions and local
>> currencies, and anything else that enables people to live their lives
>> without vampires clinging to their back and sucking their life-blood.
>> The big breakthrough is the liberation of land itself. When single
>> parents can raise their kids without fear for the roof over their heads
>> and the food on their plates, without having to suck up to a boss or
>> "curate" their online presence, that will be real freedom. Economic
>> survivalism plus rhetoric is not that. We have to be realistic about the
>> amount of hard work and struggle it's going to take to get there.
>> Lastly, here's an example of something that worked. The "UXA" was a
>> successful example of post-capitalism in the Bay Area during the 1930s
>> depression:
>> http://www.countercurrents.org/curl030510.htm
>> "At the height of the Great Depression, a group of unemployed Oakland
>> workers decided to take matters into their own hands. The system wasn’t
>> working, so they set up their own system. Money was nearly worthless, so
>> they decided to live by barter. They called themselves the Unemployed
>> Exchange Association and they soon went on to write a remarkable chapter
>> in American economic history. This is their story...."
>> -G.
>> =====
>> On 13-10-14-Mon 1:19 PM, Jake wrote:
>>> G,
>>> I believe we are entering a period of post-capitalism in the hacker
>>> community. This is a condition that is not new to humanity by any
>>> means, having been practiced by clans and villages and communities
>>> since before the epoch. But it is the direction we're moving and we
>>> should be.
>>> I want to disconnect the act of payment from the act of being an
>>> excellent member. The two are not the same. Plenty of people have
>>> given money to noisebridge without having the time to come to the
>>> space and help maintain it. Even more people come to noisebridge and
>>> make it an excellent hackerspace, but are between jobs or without the
>>> ability to pay.
>>> I am not bothered at all by people who do have the ability to pay and
>>> choose not to. If you are bothered by that i suggest you instead
>>> direct your energy toward the tea party and fatcats on wall street,
>>> who have a lot more to give and resist helping to fund the great
>>> society that made their success possible.
>>> -jake
>>> On Sun, 13 Oct 2013, GtwoG PublicOhOne wrote:
>>>> In your proposal you said "ability or willingness" to pay.
>>>> These aren't the same thing. Inability to pay = "can't," and
>>>> unwillingness = "can but won't."
>>>> What do you think of people whose attitude is, "I can afford to pay
>>>> but
>>>> I won't"...?
>>>> Is "can but won't" fair to people who honestly can't afford to pay,
>>>> and
>>>> to people who over-pay in order to cover costs for those who can't
>>>> afford to pay?
>>>> Seems to me that "can but won't" is an exploitative attitude, that
>>>> doesn't deserve to be supported, much less written into the membership
>>>> agreement.
>>>> -G.
>>>> =====
>>>> On 13-10-13-Sun 5:38 PM, Jake wrote:
>>>>> currently noisebridge is used by 99% non-Members, 1% Members.
>>>>> currently, 99% of noisebridge Members do not use noisebridge.
>>>>> currently, Membership at noisebridge requires ongoing cash flow into
>>>>> noisebridge either by tradition or rules, it is not clear which.
>>>>> I think this is not working out. Noisebridge's rent gets paid but the
>>>>> people who come to noisebridge have zero motivation to become a
>>>>> member, and so they don't bother. We should be adding several new
>>>>> members weekly.
>>>>> Membership at Noisebridge should be a valuable tool to encourage
>>>>> cooperation and a sense of belonging, while reinforcing
>>>>> accountability
>>>>> and support between users of the space (including Members and Guests)
>>>>> There is no reason for membership to be tied to giving money to
>>>>> noisebridge. If someone is excellent and wants to be a part of
>>>>> noisebridge, and no Member blocks them, they should be allowed to
>>>>> join. Members should remain in good standing regardless of their
>>>>> financial contributions as long as they are remaining excellent and
>>>>> accountable for their actions, and those of their guests.
>>>>> I propose that Noisebridge change the rules of Membership to do away
>>>>> with the cash flow requirement, and to expressly do away with the
>>>>> informal and inappropriate "bribe", which defeats the purpose of
>>>>> asking the potential member to step out while their membership is
>>>>> consensed upon _or_not_.
>>>>> We agreed last week to close noisebridge to non-Members from 23:00 to
>>>>> 10:00 every day, with the exception of guests of Members and
>>>>> Members-in-Application who have two signatures. We will be able to
>>>>> take advantage of this policy by encouraging more SUPPORTERS of
>>>>> noisebridge to become Members. We can do this by removing the payment
>>>>> requirement.
>>>>> If people want to support Noisebridge with money, they should feel
>>>>> free to do so, whether they are Members or not. If people want to
>>>>> support Noisebridge with their presence, excellence, and
>>>>> accountability to one another, they should feel free to do so,
>>>>> whether
>>>>> they are in a position to supply cash or not. I think this should be
>>>>> obvious.
>>>>> I ask that absentee Members, who have been unable or unmotivated to
>>>>> offer their support in the form of their presence, excellence, and
>>>>> accountability, please stand aside from this proposal if they have
>>>>> objections (or offer friendly amendments in the spirit of problem
>>>>> solving). People who are not regularly using the space should not
>>>>> stand in the way of improvements to be made by those who do use and
>>>>> contribute to the space regularly.
>>>>> The proposal should be worded as follows:
>>>>> Membership to Noisebridge should no longer be dependant on a person's
>>>>> ability or willingness to pay money to noisebridge, or to bring food
>>>>> or beer to a meeting, but only on their ability to acquire
>>>>> sponsorship
>>>>> signatures and be consensed upon at a meeting, after leaving the
>>>>> meeting to give opportunity for any objections to be discussed before
>>>>> they return.
>>>>> Members will thus enter and remain in good standing without regard to
>>>>> any financial contributions they do or do not make in that time.
>>>>> -jake
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss

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