[Noisebridge-discuss] think bigger

Mon Apr 7 17:02:06 UTC 2014

Arse Elektronika was duly announced in every possibly way, and someone
was at the door informing people what was happening.  So, there you
go.

Some of the 5MoF intros were deliberately shock-inducing stuff that I
agree was mostly in poor taste, especially because of the lack of
warning.

I'll accept that Praveen might have shocked someone, and I'm not going
to say anyone shouldn't have emotional reactions to stuff.  But I will
say that people should, in general, seek to understand as well.

***Especially when it's someone like Praveen.***

I don't really care to turn Noisebridge into something exactly like
what Double Union is doing.  The people who want to be over there can
be over there.  That's fine with me.

--Naomi

On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 9:49 AM, Hannah Grimm <dharlette at gmail.com> wrote:
> My take on events that involve sex is that I should never be surprised by
> them.  I should know, well before seeing the fucking machine or bondage
> clowns, that that is the content of a given presentation.  That probably
> means announcements on the wiki/mailing list, AND a prominent warning sign
> on the door of Noisebridge on the day in question.  A sex-including 5mof
> presentation should not be a surprise either, whoever the MC is should
> probably have informed the crowd that that was going to happen, and ideally
> schedule that particular talk near the end of the night so that those who
> don't want to participate can leave without missing much else.  And that's
> for presentations that are inherently about sex, if you just want to throw
> some random boobs into your cryptography presentation to sex it up then you
> need to rethink your presentation.
>
> If I walked in on people being fucked in public, then I would neeeeever come
> back.  It should be very, very easy for me to avoid that if it's something I
> don't want to see.
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 7, 2014 at 8:14 AM, Ceren Ercen <ceren at ercen.com> wrote:
>>
>> Nope, Will's right. A woman freaked out by a confrontational sex act in
>> front of her is not under some sort of obligation to try to excuse or
>> contextualize it before she's allowed to have any emotional reaction. As
>> Praveen's email read standing alone, it required insider historical
>> knowledge of Noisebridge to not be, frankly, deeply uncomfortable with the
>> event as presented. Even I cringed.
>>
>> Just as tits-grabbing on entrance to a house or party isn't excuseable by
>> saying "oh, if you weren't so new to this group, you'd get it, haha, it's a
>> running  joke", this, too, as it was presented out of context, looked pretty
>> horrific.
>>
>> Please be a little more aware of context when writing your emails -
>> presenting this as a Wacky Thing That Noisebridge Does and Is Intrinsic To
>> Our Character in your enthusiasm in listing such things doesn't excuse how
>> deeply uncomfortable the mention can make any someone who isn't "in the
>> know", and she never deserves to be intimidated like that. Any hypothetical
>> "she" is not required to read the whole of noisebridge-archive to say "wow,
>> that thing you described just now really would make me upset and
>> uncomfortable". That is an unreasonable burden.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Apr 5, 2014 6:55 PM, "Naomi Most" <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Actually, I think Hannah was unfair.  Rather than try to find out what
>>> the context was, she immediately moved to criticize it.
>>>
>>> --Naomi
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Apr 5, 2014 at 3:50 PM, William Sargent <will.sargent at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > Naomi, this is unfair.  Hannah was perfectly correct.  Praveen
>>> > presented a sex act in Noisebridge out of context of a presentation of Sex
>>> > and Technology, and Hannah read it as he presented it.  If there's no
>>> > warning and no discussion, then there's no consent to being involved in
>>> > those activities.
>>> >
>>> > I remember people being distinctly uncomfortable with "sexy clowns"
>>> > being presented at Five Minutes of Fame, and that had no actual nudity
>>> > involved.
>>> >
>>> > Will.
>>> >
>>> > On Apr 5, 2014, at 3:41 PM, Naomi Most <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Yes, I think Hannah did nail it.
>>> >>
>>> >> She successfully demonstrated that she, as well as you, have no
>>> >> recollection of what Noisebridge culture was, and have only knee-jerk
>>> >> reactions to provide instead of actual understanding.
>>> >>
>>> >> --Naomi
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On Sat, Apr 5, 2014 at 1:11 PM, Tom Lowenthal <me at tomlowenthal.com>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>> On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 7:33 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com>
>>> >>> wrote:
>>> >>>> In that, I submit that our pains have not to do with mismanagment,
>>> >>>> but
>>> >>>> that we need to grow into our next phase for an even larger and more
>>> >>>> dynamic
>>> >>>> community:  I don't know what it's going to look like or what the
>>> >>>> outcome
>>> >>>> will be, but as everyone is shuffling about in this latest re-org, I
>>> >>>> think
>>> >>>> it's important to think bigger and more radical and more creative
>>> >>>> and more
>>> >>>> inclusive.  As a hackerspace, we can go in directions no other space
>>> >>>> or
>>> >>>> collective on the planet is capable of at the moment.  Keep it mind
>>> >>>> as we
>>> >>>> fight our battles, whatever side of drama you wind up on.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Hannah wrote:
>>> >>>> Praveen, this is not as simple as an issue of "inclusion" and a
>>> >>>> happy little
>>> >>>> collective.  The truth of the matter is that when you include some
>>> >>>> people,
>>> >>>> you cause others to feel threatened & unsafe and thereby exclude
>>> >>>> them.
>>> >>>> People who are high at Noisebridge tend to cross boundaries, and one
>>> >>>> of
>>> >>>> those boundaries is often the bodily autonomy of women at the space.
>>> >>>> San
>>> >>>> Francisco is full of places where people can go to see folks screw
>>> >>>> in
>>> >>>> public, Noisebridge does not need to be one of them.  If you want to
>>> >>>> display
>>> >>>> your bondage technology, go to Wicked Grounds!  If you want to get
>>> >>>> high in
>>> >>>> public, go to Dolores Park!  The place full of collectively owned
>>> >>>> powertools
>>> >>>> is not the correct venue for those activities.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I think Hannah pretty much nailed it.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I think that Noisebridge is a hackerspace, and our stated goal is to
>>> >>> be a place where diverse sorts of people feel safe and comfortable
>>> >>> working on and talking about their technical-creative projects. I'm
>>> >>> quite certain that other things can happen at Noisebridge; many do.
>>> >>> When we're thinking about another activity, considering whether it's
>>> >>> a
>>> >>> good fit for Noisebridge, the most important question we should ask
>>> >>> is:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> "Does this enable or interfere with Noisebridge as place where
>>> >>>> diverse sorts
>>> >>>> of people feel safe and comfortable working on and talking about
>>> >>>> their technical-
>>> >>>> -creative projects.?"
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Our answer to this question should be the most important factor in
>>> >>> determining what to do. If there's something that makes people feel
>>> >>> *less* safe and comfortable, or makes it *harder* to work on
>>> >>> technical-creative projects, we should recognise that -- although
>>> >>> this
>>> >>> activity may be totally reasonable in general -- Noisebridge isn't
>>> >>> the
>>> >>> place for it.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Hugs & kisses,
>>> >>> -Tom
>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>> >>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>> >>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Naomi Theora Most
>>> >> naomi at nthmost.com
>>> >> +1-415-728-7490
>>> >>
>>> >> skype: nthmost
>>> >>
>>> >> http://twitter.com/nthmost
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>> >> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>> >> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Naomi Theora Most
>>> naomi at nthmost.com
>>> +1-415-728-7490
>>>
>>> skype: nthmost
>>>
>>> http://twitter.com/nthmost
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>
>

-- 
Naomi Theora Most
naomi at nthmost.com
+1-415-728-7490

skype: nthmost

http://twitter.com/nthmost