[Noisebridge-discuss] "Banning" discussion tonight

Wed Feb 26 01:37:18 UTC 2014

I don't agree with that, not at all.  A ban from the Noisebridge space
may be a useful social punishment for a social crime that typically
goes unaddressed, and de facto community support for the victims of
harassment.

On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 5:31 PM, Darius Garza <313kid at gmail.com> wrote:
> If the alleged harassment occurred in the space or on the discussion list,
> then I understand how that may lead to banning. Otherwise this is a personal
> issue that should be dealt with privately between the concerned parties and
> possibly law enforcement.
>
> It's excessive to ban people due to issues between noisebridge patrons that
> did not happen in the physical or virtual noisebridge domain.
>
> D.
>
> On Feb 25, 2014 5:12 PM, "Ronald Cotoni" <setient at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Tom was repeatidely contacted by lee.   He asked lee to stop, he didn't.
>> That is harassment.  Tom made an effort to get lee to stop and he didn't.
>>
>> On Feb 25, 2014 4:39 PM, "Charles Tang" <cjtang1 at asu.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> Jeffery,
>>>
>>> I'm aware of the policy.
>>>
>>> But, I think this was an issue of Lee having just a mere difference in
>>> opinion on the definition of feminism, or maybe just made it all up to get
>>> attention from tom for whatever reason.
>>>
>>> I don't remember the discussion involving anything other than Lee being
>>> incredibly annoying to tom.
>>>
>>> Not a really high threshold.
>>> --
>>> Sent from Mailbox for iPhone
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 4:35 PM, Jeffrey Carl Faden
>>> <jeffreyatw at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Charles,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You can read our anti-harassment policy, which includes our definition
>>>> of harassment, here:
>>>> https://github.com/noisebridge/anti-harassment
>>>>
>>>> Cheers!
>>>> Jeffrey
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 25, 2014, at 4:33 PM, Charles Tang <cjtang1 at asu.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Retributive
>>>> Utilitarian
>>>> Restorative
>>>>
>>>> All I see here is semi-retributive desire, cow moos too much, cow should
>>>> go to the ban-hammer factory.
>>>>
>>>> How are we defining harassment for those who just have a difference in
>>>> opinion.
>>>>
>>>> Cow moos to much and it's harassment, cow should be silenced and go to
>>>> the ban-hammer factory.
>>>>
>>>> No theory can explain cow. Cow is just different than the rest of the
>>>> cows because cow moos too much.
>>>>
>>>> Cowrights are diminished, cow is not allow to the field with the rest of
>>>> the cows. Send any other cow to the ban-hammer factory, as cows become less.
>>>> Any moo is problematic. Consequently, all cows eventually go to the
>>>> ban-hammer-factory.
>>>>
>>>> It's a slippery ice cream scoop and were all about to fall off the cone.
>>>>
>>>> I should hope that, I, another cow, doesn't anger vegans for my product.
>>>> For then, I moo too much too. I may be the next cow on the list.
>>>>
>>>> I'd be really sad.
>>>> --
>>>> Sent from Mailbox for iPhone
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 4:24 PM, Naomi Most <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I would like for Lee to be at the meeting as well.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 4:20 PM, Al Sweigart <asweigart at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> > Mitch, Lee Sonko knew about the banning proposal. I had personally
>>>>> > been in
>>>>> > discussion with him about it. I was surprised that he didn't show up
>>>>> > to the
>>>>> > meeting.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > And this is why Noisebridge isn't a safe space: after months of
>>>>> > on-and-off
>>>>> > harassment, Tom brings up this consensus proposal, it's on the docket
>>>>> > for
>>>>> > weeks, and actually manages to pass consensus. Yet after all these
>>>>> > hurdles
>>>>> > were overcome, Lee can defy his ban and come back into the space and
>>>>> > debate
>>>>> > his banning.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Because Mitch says so. Even though he's a member and could have
>>>>> > blocked for
>>>>> > more discussion.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > We treat abusive people with kid gloves, and even when we manage to
>>>>> > get
>>>>> > something passed consensus and say, "Yes, this person should be
>>>>> > banned",
>>>>> > Mitch still wants to have a do-over.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Mitch, do you respect consensus? Or only when it agrees with you?
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 2:40 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com>
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> I love you Naomi!!!! Community meeting is a GREAT idea :) I don't
>>>>> >> know
>>>>> >> if I can be there tonight, but I'll try my best.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 2:37 PM, Naomi Most <pnaomi at gmail.com>
>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> I will be there. I also feel this is an extremely important
>>>>> >>> discussion, and goes much deeper than simply the use of a ban.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> I have a solution in mind to avoid these situations, something I
>>>>> >>> brought up a few meetings ago: a "community" meeting.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Misunderstandings shouldn't be allowed to scale to the level of
>>>>> >>> "drama". In our current "system", we only have two modes: the
>>>>> >>> general
>>>>> >>> meeting and noisebridge-discuss. The former is simply an
>>>>> >>> inappropriate venue for addressing interpersonal issues, and the
>>>>> >>> latter... well.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Now that I see to what ridiculous level the Noisebridge version of
>>>>> >>> justice can be taken in response to interpersonal issues that
>>>>> >>> should
>>>>> >>> never have escalated, it's time we consider strongly the idea of
>>>>> >>> having a Community meeting in addition to the NB general meeting.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> --Naomi
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 2:08 PM, Mitch Altman
>>>>> >>> <maltman23 at hotmail.com>
>>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>>> >>> > Unfortunately I won't be able to be at tonight's meeting. But I
>>>>> >>> > want
>>>>> >>> > to
>>>>> >>> > encourage discussion of "Banning".
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> > It is important to get rid of people who melt use, rather
>>>>> >>> > contribute to
>>>>> >>> > the
>>>>> >>> > culture of Noisebridge and is mission and vision. It is also
>>>>> >>> > important
>>>>> >>> > to
>>>>> >>> > ban people who are disruptive, make many people uncomfortable, or
>>>>> >>> > are
>>>>> >>> > violent or hateful.
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> > It is also important to not use banning as a means of getting rid
>>>>> >>> > of
>>>>> >>> > someone
>>>>> >>> > because you don't like them, or because you have a
>>>>> >>> > misunderstanding or
>>>>> >>> > argument.
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> > Banning is a drastic measure, and (unless for violent or hateful
>>>>> >>> > or
>>>>> >>> > illegal
>>>>> >>> > behavior) should only be done when other means have been
>>>>> >>> > exhausted.
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> > These concepts need to be discussed and explored.
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> > A specific case came to my attention recently. Lee Sony was
>>>>> >>> > apparently
>>>>> >>> > banned without him being allowed to present his position. He will
>>>>> >>> > be
>>>>> >>> > at
>>>>> >>> > tonight's meeting. I hope people will listen and respond. I feel
>>>>> >>> > this
>>>>> >>> > is
>>>>> >>> > important.
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> > Best,
>>>>> >>> > Mitch.
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>> >>> > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>> >>> > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>> >>> >
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> --
>>>>> >>> Naomi Theora Most
>>>>> >>> naomi at nthmost.com
>>>>> >>> +1-415-728-7490
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> skype: nthmost
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> http://twitter.com/nthmost
>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>> >>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>> >>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>> >> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>> >> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Naomi Theora Most
>>>>> naomi at nthmost.com
>>>>> +1-415-728-7490
>>>>>
>>>>> skype: nthmost
>>>>>
>>>>> http://twitter.com/nthmost
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

-- 
Naomi Theora Most
naomi at nthmost.com
+1-415-728-7490

skype: nthmost

http://twitter.com/nthmost