[Noisebridge-discuss] "Banning" discussion tonight

Darius Garza 313kid at gmail.com
Wed Feb 26 01:42:14 UTC 2014


"A ban from the Noisebridge space may be a useful social punishment for a
social crime"

Noisebridge is a lot of things, but it certainly isn't up to anyone to use
it as a "social punishment" tool.

d.

On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 5:37 PM, Naomi Most <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't agree with that, not at all.  A ban from the Noisebridge space
> may be a useful social punishment for a social crime that typically
> goes unaddressed, and de facto community support for the victims of
> harassment.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 5:31 PM, Darius Garza <313kid at gmail.com> wrote:
> > If the alleged harassment occurred in the space or on the discussion
> list,
> > then I understand how that may lead to banning. Otherwise this is a
> personal
> > issue that should be dealt with privately between the concerned parties
> and
> > possibly law enforcement.
> >
> > It's excessive to ban people due to issues between noisebridge patrons
> that
> > did not happen in the physical or virtual noisebridge domain.
> >
> > D.
> >
> > On Feb 25, 2014 5:12 PM, "Ronald Cotoni" <setient at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Tom was repeatidely contacted by lee.   He asked lee to stop, he didn't.
> >> That is harassment.  Tom made an effort to get lee to stop and he
> didn't.
> >>
> >> On Feb 25, 2014 4:39 PM, "Charles Tang" <cjtang1 at asu.edu> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Jeffery,
> >>>
> >>> I'm aware of the policy.
> >>>
> >>> But, I think this was an issue of Lee having just a mere difference in
> >>> opinion on the definition of feminism, or maybe just made it all up to
> get
> >>> attention from tom for whatever reason.
> >>>
> >>> I don't remember the discussion involving anything other than Lee being
> >>> incredibly annoying to tom.
> >>>
> >>> Not a really high threshold.
> >>> --
> >>> Sent from Mailbox for iPhone
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 4:35 PM, Jeffrey Carl Faden
> >>> <jeffreyatw at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi Charles,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> You can read our anti-harassment policy, which includes our definition
> >>>> of harassment, here:
> >>>> https://github.com/noisebridge/anti-harassment
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers!
> >>>> Jeffrey
> >>>>
> >>>> On Feb 25, 2014, at 4:33 PM, Charles Tang <cjtang1 at asu.edu> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Retributive
> >>>> Utilitarian
> >>>> Restorative
> >>>>
> >>>> All I see here is semi-retributive desire, cow moos too much, cow
> should
> >>>> go to the ban-hammer factory.
> >>>>
> >>>> How are we defining harassment for those who just have a difference in
> >>>> opinion.
> >>>>
> >>>> Cow moos to much and it's harassment, cow should be silenced and go to
> >>>> the ban-hammer factory.
> >>>>
> >>>> No theory can explain cow. Cow is just different than the rest of the
> >>>> cows because cow moos too much.
> >>>>
> >>>> Cowrights are diminished, cow is not allow to the field with the rest
> of
> >>>> the cows. Send any other cow to the ban-hammer factory, as cows
> become less.
> >>>> Any moo is problematic. Consequently, all cows eventually go to the
> >>>> ban-hammer-factory.
> >>>>
> >>>> It's a slippery ice cream scoop and were all about to fall off the
> cone.
> >>>>
> >>>> I should hope that, I, another cow, doesn't anger vegans for my
> product.
> >>>> For then, I moo too much too. I may be the next cow on the list.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'd be really sad.
> >>>> --
> >>>> Sent from Mailbox for iPhone
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 4:24 PM, Naomi Most <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I would like for Lee to be at the meeting as well.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 4:20 PM, Al Sweigart <asweigart at gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>> > Mitch, Lee Sonko knew about the banning proposal. I had personally
> >>>>> > been in
> >>>>> > discussion with him about it. I was surprised that he didn't show
> up
> >>>>> > to the
> >>>>> > meeting.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > And this is why Noisebridge isn't a safe space: after months of
> >>>>> > on-and-off
> >>>>> > harassment, Tom brings up this consensus proposal, it's on the
> docket
> >>>>> > for
> >>>>> > weeks, and actually manages to pass consensus. Yet after all these
> >>>>> > hurdles
> >>>>> > were overcome, Lee can defy his ban and come back into the space
> and
> >>>>> > debate
> >>>>> > his banning.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > Because Mitch says so. Even though he's a member and could have
> >>>>> > blocked for
> >>>>> > more discussion.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > We treat abusive people with kid gloves, and even when we manage to
> >>>>> > get
> >>>>> > something passed consensus and say, "Yes, this person should be
> >>>>> > banned",
> >>>>> > Mitch still wants to have a do-over.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > Mitch, do you respect consensus? Or only when it agrees with you?
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 2:40 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com>
> >>>>> > wrote:
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> I love you Naomi!!!! Community meeting is a GREAT idea :) I don't
> >>>>> >> know
> >>>>> >> if I can be there tonight, but I'll try my best.
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 2:37 PM, Naomi Most <pnaomi at gmail.com>
> >>>>> >> wrote:
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> I will be there. I also feel this is an extremely important
> >>>>> >>> discussion, and goes much deeper than simply the use of a ban.
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> I have a solution in mind to avoid these situations, something I
> >>>>> >>> brought up a few meetings ago: a "community" meeting.
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> Misunderstandings shouldn't be allowed to scale to the level of
> >>>>> >>> "drama". In our current "system", we only have two modes: the
> >>>>> >>> general
> >>>>> >>> meeting and noisebridge-discuss. The former is simply an
> >>>>> >>> inappropriate venue for addressing interpersonal issues, and the
> >>>>> >>> latter... well.
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> Now that I see to what ridiculous level the Noisebridge version
> of
> >>>>> >>> justice can be taken in response to interpersonal issues that
> >>>>> >>> should
> >>>>> >>> never have escalated, it's time we consider strongly the idea of
> >>>>> >>> having a Community meeting in addition to the NB general meeting.
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> --Naomi
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 2:08 PM, Mitch Altman
> >>>>> >>> <maltman23 at hotmail.com>
> >>>>> >>> wrote:
> >>>>> >>> > Unfortunately I won't be able to be at tonight's meeting. But I
> >>>>> >>> > want
> >>>>> >>> > to
> >>>>> >>> > encourage discussion of "Banning".
> >>>>> >>> >
> >>>>> >>> > It is important to get rid of people who melt use, rather
> >>>>> >>> > contribute to
> >>>>> >>> > the
> >>>>> >>> > culture of Noisebridge and is mission and vision. It is also
> >>>>> >>> > important
> >>>>> >>> > to
> >>>>> >>> > ban people who are disruptive, make many people uncomfortable,
> or
> >>>>> >>> > are
> >>>>> >>> > violent or hateful.
> >>>>> >>> >
> >>>>> >>> > It is also important to not use banning as a means of getting
> rid
> >>>>> >>> > of
> >>>>> >>> > someone
> >>>>> >>> > because you don't like them, or because you have a
> >>>>> >>> > misunderstanding or
> >>>>> >>> > argument.
> >>>>> >>> >
> >>>>> >>> > Banning is a drastic measure, and (unless for violent or
> hateful
> >>>>> >>> > or
> >>>>> >>> > illegal
> >>>>> >>> > behavior) should only be done when other means have been
> >>>>> >>> > exhausted.
> >>>>> >>> >
> >>>>> >>> > These concepts need to be discussed and explored.
> >>>>> >>> >
> >>>>> >>> > A specific case came to my attention recently. Lee Sony was
> >>>>> >>> > apparently
> >>>>> >>> > banned without him being allowed to present his position. He
> will
> >>>>> >>> > be
> >>>>> >>> > at
> >>>>> >>> > tonight's meeting. I hope people will listen and respond. I
> feel
> >>>>> >>> > this
> >>>>> >>> > is
> >>>>> >>> > important.
> >>>>> >>> >
> >>>>> >>> > Best,
> >>>>> >>> > Mitch.
> >>>>> >>> >
> >>>>> >>> >
> >>>>> >>> >
> >>>>> >>> >
> >>>>> >>> >
> >>>>> >>> >
> >>>>> >>> >
> >>>>> >>> >
> >>>>> >>> >
> >>>>> >>> >
> >>>>> >>> >
> >>>>> >>> >
> >>>>> >>> >
> >>>>> >>> >
> >>>>> >>> >
> >>>>> >>> >
> >>>>> >>> >
> >>>>> >>> >
> >>>>> >>> >
> >>>>> >>> > _______________________________________________
> >>>>> >>> > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >>>>> >>> > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >>>>> >>> >
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >>>>> >>> >
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> --
> >>>>> >>> Naomi Theora Most
> >>>>> >>> naomi at nthmost.com
> >>>>> >>> +1-415-728-7490
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> skype: nthmost
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> http://twitter.com/nthmost
> >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> >>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >>>>> >>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >>>>> >>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> >> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >>>>> >> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >>>>> >> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Naomi Theora Most
> >>>>> naomi at nthmost.com
> >>>>> +1-415-728-7490
> >>>>>
> >>>>> skype: nthmost
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://twitter.com/nthmost
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Naomi Theora Most
> naomi at nthmost.com
> +1-415-728-7490
>
> skype: nthmost
>
> http://twitter.com/nthmost
>
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