[Noisebridge-discuss] "Banning" discussion tonight

Wed Feb 26 01:27:43 UTC 2014

Yes, that seems clear.  The question is why "capital punishment", in
Noisebridge terms, has been applied here.  There is also a more
fundamental question of why Lee felt he had no other recourse but to
take the actions he took.

--Naomi

On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 5:12 PM, Ronald Cotoni <setient at gmail.com> wrote:
> Tom was repeatidely contacted by lee.   He asked lee to stop, he didn't.
> That is harassment.  Tom made an effort to get lee to stop and he didn't.
>
> On Feb 25, 2014 4:39 PM, "Charles Tang" <cjtang1 at asu.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Jeffery,
>>
>> I'm aware of the policy.
>>
>> But, I think this was an issue of Lee having just a mere difference in
>> opinion on the definition of feminism, or maybe just made it all up to get
>> attention from tom for whatever reason.
>>
>> I don't remember the discussion involving anything other than Lee being
>> incredibly annoying to tom.
>>
>> Not a really high threshold.
>> --
>> Sent from Mailbox for iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 4:35 PM, Jeffrey Carl Faden <jeffreyatw at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Charles,
>>>
>>>
>>> You can read our anti-harassment policy, which includes our definition of
>>> harassment, here:
>>> https://github.com/noisebridge/anti-harassment
>>>
>>> Cheers!
>>> Jeffrey
>>>
>>> On Feb 25, 2014, at 4:33 PM, Charles Tang <cjtang1 at asu.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> Retributive
>>> Utilitarian
>>> Restorative
>>>
>>> All I see here is semi-retributive desire, cow moos too much, cow should
>>> go to the ban-hammer factory.
>>>
>>> How are we defining harassment for those who just have a difference in
>>> opinion.
>>>
>>> Cow moos to much and it's harassment, cow should be silenced and go to
>>> the ban-hammer factory.
>>>
>>> No theory can explain cow. Cow is just different than the rest of the
>>> cows because cow moos too much.
>>>
>>> Cowrights are diminished, cow is not allow to the field with the rest of
>>> the cows. Send any other cow to the ban-hammer factory, as cows become less.
>>> Any moo is problematic. Consequently, all cows eventually go to the
>>> ban-hammer-factory.
>>>
>>> It's a slippery ice cream scoop and were all about to fall off the cone.
>>>
>>> I should hope that, I, another cow, doesn't anger vegans for my product.
>>> For then, I moo too much too. I may be the next cow on the list.
>>>
>>> I'd be really sad.
>>> --
>>> Sent from Mailbox for iPhone
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 4:24 PM, Naomi Most <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I would like for Lee to be at the meeting as well.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 4:20 PM, Al Sweigart <asweigart at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > Mitch, Lee Sonko knew about the banning proposal. I had personally
>>>> > been in
>>>> > discussion with him about it. I was surprised that he didn't show up
>>>> > to the
>>>> > meeting.
>>>> >
>>>> > And this is why Noisebridge isn't a safe space: after months of
>>>> > on-and-off
>>>> > harassment, Tom brings up this consensus proposal, it's on the docket
>>>> > for
>>>> > weeks, and actually manages to pass consensus. Yet after all these
>>>> > hurdles
>>>> > were overcome, Lee can defy his ban and come back into the space and
>>>> > debate
>>>> > his banning.
>>>> >
>>>> > Because Mitch says so. Even though he's a member and could have
>>>> > blocked for
>>>> > more discussion.
>>>> >
>>>> > We treat abusive people with kid gloves, and even when we manage to
>>>> > get
>>>> > something passed consensus and say, "Yes, this person should be
>>>> > banned",
>>>> > Mitch still wants to have a do-over.
>>>> >
>>>> > Mitch, do you respect consensus? Or only when it agrees with you?
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 2:40 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I love you Naomi!!!! Community meeting is a GREAT idea :) I don't
>>>> >> know
>>>> >> if I can be there tonight, but I'll try my best.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 2:37 PM, Naomi Most <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I will be there. I also feel this is an extremely important
>>>> >>> discussion, and goes much deeper than simply the use of a ban.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I have a solution in mind to avoid these situations, something I
>>>> >>> brought up a few meetings ago: a "community" meeting.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Misunderstandings shouldn't be allowed to scale to the level of
>>>> >>> "drama". In our current "system", we only have two modes: the
>>>> >>> general
>>>> >>> meeting and noisebridge-discuss. The former is simply an
>>>> >>> inappropriate venue for addressing interpersonal issues, and the
>>>> >>> latter... well.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Now that I see to what ridiculous level the Noisebridge version of
>>>> >>> justice can be taken in response to interpersonal issues that should
>>>> >>> never have escalated, it's time we consider strongly the idea of
>>>> >>> having a Community meeting in addition to the NB general meeting.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> --Naomi
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 2:08 PM, Mitch Altman
>>>> >>> <maltman23 at hotmail.com>
>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>> >>> > Unfortunately I won't be able to be at tonight's meeting. But I
>>>> >>> > want
>>>> >>> > to
>>>> >>> > encourage discussion of "Banning".
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > It is important to get rid of people who melt use, rather
>>>> >>> > contribute to
>>>> >>> > the
>>>> >>> > culture of Noisebridge and is mission and vision. It is also
>>>> >>> > important
>>>> >>> > to
>>>> >>> > ban people who are disruptive, make many people uncomfortable, or
>>>> >>> > are
>>>> >>> > violent or hateful.
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > It is also important to not use banning as a means of getting rid
>>>> >>> > of
>>>> >>> > someone
>>>> >>> > because you don't like them, or because you have a
>>>> >>> > misunderstanding or
>>>> >>> > argument.
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > Banning is a drastic measure, and (unless for violent or hateful
>>>> >>> > or
>>>> >>> > illegal
>>>> >>> > behavior) should only be done when other means have been
>>>> >>> > exhausted.
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > These concepts need to be discussed and explored.
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > A specific case came to my attention recently. Lee Sony was
>>>> >>> > apparently
>>>> >>> > banned without him being allowed to present his position. He will
>>>> >>> > be
>>>> >>> > at
>>>> >>> > tonight's meeting. I hope people will listen and respond. I feel
>>>> >>> > this
>>>> >>> > is
>>>> >>> > important.
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > Best,
>>>> >>> > Mitch.
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>> >>> > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> >>> > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> --
>>>> >>> Naomi Theora Most
>>>> >>> naomi at nthmost.com
>>>> >>> +1-415-728-7490
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> skype: nthmost
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> http://twitter.com/nthmost
>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>> >>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> >>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
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>>>> >> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> >> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Naomi Theora Most
>>>> naomi at nthmost.com
>>>> +1-415-728-7490
>>>>
>>>> skype: nthmost
>>>>
>>>> http://twitter.com/nthmost
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
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-- 
Naomi Theora Most
naomi at nthmost.com
+1-415-728-7490

skype: nthmost

http://twitter.com/nthmost