[Noisebridge-discuss] Gamebridge?

[Romy Ilano]

Man, I just don't even know what to say. There's a big gap in what you
think $170,000 can do and what I think it can do.

I know a lot of people at Noisebridge are fundamentally against the concept
of money and profit, but a team of more than two engineers with $170,000
lasts... not that long!

<3

So are you hacking on any Python projects?



=============================

Romy Ilano
romy at snowyla.com




On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 6:53 PM, Al Sweigart <asweigart at gmail.com> wrote:

> Wow, I left for the weekend and this thread really blew up.
>
> Alex: you're full of excuses. The only time that was okay was $170,000 ago.
>
> Romy: Pointing out the fact that Alex blazed through a large sum of money
> with next to nothing to show for it isn't character assassination. I think
> you're being too generous with Alex. I think his reputation is well
> deserved.
>
> -Al
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 5:23 PM, Romy Ilano <romy at snowyla.com> wrote:
>
>> You know what, this conversation was actually very useful. I'm on my way
>> to making my first open source SudoRoom and Noisebridge educational game.
>>
>> Despite all the public character assassination, i think this was a useful
>> thread overall.
>>
>> When you're in charge, Alex, as you're learning, you're the one to blame
>> when everything fails! That's just the way it is =D And character
>> assassination is part of the game. I sure know how it feels.
>>
>>
>>
>> =============================
>>
>> Romy Ilano
>> romy at snowyla.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 2:18 PM, Oren Beck <orenbeck at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Can we signal boost that?
>>>
>>> "Hackerspace is for Hacking"
>>>
>>> On 1/19/14, Romy Snowyla <romy at snowyla.com> wrote:
>>> > Id also like to go to noisebridge return to it's equilibrium of mostly
>>> being
>>> > about hacking.
>>> >
>>> > I'm very tired of going there and sudoroom and having people waste
>>> most of
>>> > my time trying to promote some offsite company product or to get me to
>>> > attend five minutes of fame to hear a bunch of commercials,
>>> >
>>> > It's ok to advertise in small doses but this is a hackerspace not a
>>> public
>>> > relations firm. It gets to the point where I get stuff done if I avoid
>>> > interacting with anyone .
>>> >
>>> > Plus hacking speaks for itself. I can see on github whether people are
>>> > contributing or not or if they're just out to assault me with some
>>> company's
>>> > PowerPoint
>>> >
>>> > Let's keep the hacking in the hackerspace
>>> >
>>> > Sent from my iPhone
>>> >
>>> >> On Jan 18, 2014, at 8:59 AM, Oren Beck <orenbeck at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Ok- I'm going to take a whack at restoring vibes of Be Excellent To
>>> Each
>>> >> Other!
>>> >>
>>> >> Let's be adult and honest here- PASSION in one's crafts simply is what
>>> >> sets many of us apart as "Role Models" and i see that while we DO have
>>> >> honorless louts that are pure thieves- others get blinded by passion
>>> or
>>> >> simple lack of clue... We see both the skills and the fails?
>>> >>
>>> >> From which the Truly Dark Sides gain a power we might contemplate
>>> being
>>> >> scared shitless of. Scared  so by what I call the NOD Rule:
>>> >>
>>> >>  A tech guru is not inherently a #DEITY. Not Our Deity means- they're
>>> >> HUMAN and can screw up on so many levels as can ANY of us.
>>> >>
>>> >> I hope my point is taken at the simplest evaluation. Cherish the
>>> skills
>>> >> some folks have. Pardon them for being mere humans. Remind them as
>>> others
>>> >> have- bad acts are unacceptable =NOT EXCELLENT.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> TealDeer: LIVE by the   Be Excellent Meme.  Oh yeah- that does
>>> include the
>>> >> needful compartmentalization of skills from misdeeds.
>>> >>
>>> >> Constructive comemts on list- flame me  privately to keep drama off
>>> list:>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Oren Beck
>>> >>
>>> >> 816.632.3695
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 12:41 AM, Romy Snowyla <romy at snowyla.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>> It's also common to see people at noisebridge bashing VC as if they
>>> were
>>> >>> all dumb.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Well wow kick starter doesn't have due diligence does it. ? Kick
>>> starter
>>> >>> doesn't have a board if directors that will dis your collective
>>> consensus
>>> >>> bs that refuses to fire your best buddy and no board that pushes back
>>> >>> when you hire a gigantic team?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Geez.
>>> >>> ;)
>>> >>> All of these would've been prevented by a good VC. They don't
>>> generally
>>> >>> invest less than a million in a company that would expect to pay more
>>> >>> than two or three engineers a living wage. Of $70k either
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 8:30 AM, Adrian Chadd <adrian.chadd at gmail.com>
>>> >>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Romy,
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> It's the dirty side of the startup culture. Everything is hyped, all
>>> >>>> ideas will change the world.. and less than 1% of 1% of them will.
>>> Those
>>> >>>> that succeed stand to make stupid amounts of money and/or fame, but
>>> the
>>> >>>> rest .. fall into this kind of category. They have this kind of
>>> drama.
>>> >>>> The people involved end up this kind of burnt out.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> I'm disenheartened by the comments left on the website. People took
>>> a
>>> >>>> risk on kickstarter and now they want their money back? It's a risk.
>>> >>>> Unless you have proof that Alex mis-spent $170k, it's totally easy
>>> to
>>> >>>> spend $170k on legitimate business purchases and run out of cash
>>> before
>>> >>>> delivering. People are .. expensive.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> I meet plenty of people with similar drive, similar ideas, and
>>> similar
>>> >>>> experiences in Silicon Valley.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Alex - I hope you've learnt your lesson. :-)
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> -a
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> On 18 January 2014 08:18, Romy Snowyla <romy at snowyla.com> wrote:
>>> >>>>> Al
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> All these guys angry at Alex are complaining about how they didn't
>>> get
>>> >>>>> credit.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Why don't they come out of the woodwork and take credit for the
>>> >>>>> failure?
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Why don't they take credit for the product sucking? It really
>>> wasn't
>>> >>>>> that great.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Why don't these angry people take credit for trying to run a
>>> company by
>>> >>>>> consensus and too many chefs spoiling the soup?
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> They are all so eager to blame Alex for the failure.. But they want
>>> >>>>> credit for any success. It's confusing. Why pin the failure on one
>>> >>>>> person and then greedily grab credit if there's success ?
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> It's very childish!
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> I also think anyone quitting their job expecting a great wage from
>>> a
>>> >>>>> company with only $170K in funding is pretty foolish. I'm not
>>> saying
>>> >>>>> anyone deserves bad fortune but it's easy to blame others for your
>>> lack
>>> >>>>> of foresight
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> I'm also wondering how any company can raise money without a
>>> figurehead
>>> >>>>> like Alex. You want to raise a couple million by consensus ?
>>> Without a
>>> >>>>> spokesperson ? Forget it
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> You're all so eager to blame Alex for your troubles .., why not
>>> share
>>> >>>>> it if you were all so eager to share the success?
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> On Jan 17, 2014, at 8:44 PM, Aduct lex Peake
>>> >>>>>> <empowerthyself at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Al:
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> It pains me that you think ill of me because I highly respect you,
>>> >>>>>> your book, your work teaching programming, and your contributions
>>> to
>>> >>>>>> Noisebridge. (The lockers you added recently are amazing.)
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I do think your view of me and my work is based on incomplete and
>>> >>>>>> inaccurate reports by journalists, online critics and disappointed
>>> >>>>>> team members.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> As bleak as the picture they paint of me and Code Hero may seem,
>>> it is
>>> >>>>>> not the whole story.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I know you've posted negative remarks about me online in the past
>>> and
>>> >>>>>> I regret not speaking to you previously.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I've responded to backer concerns already, but as a fellow
>>> Noisebridge
>>> >>>>>> community member bringing this up on the mailing list your
>>> concerns
>>> >>>>>> deserve an answer here.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I would like to take this opportunity to clear a few things up.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I'd also like to speak to you in person so you can express
>>> whatever
>>> >>>>>> concerns you have with me and we can address them.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> TLDR:
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I started Code Hero to make a game that teaches people
>>> programming. I
>>> >>>>>> was inexperienced at the outset and made a lot of mistakes along
>>> the
>>> >>>>>> way.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I overreached on the design and tried to do more than our
>>> Kickstarter
>>> >>>>>> budget allowed for, our team ran out of funding and we all
>>> suffered
>>> >>>>>> because of that.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I didn't update Kickstarter backers often enough and I upset a
>>> lot of
>>> >>>>>> people who felt betrayed because they thought I had abandoned the
>>> >>>>>> project I've never stopped working on Code Hero and it has come a
>>> long
>>> >>>>>> way closer to completion since then.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I apologized to everyone who was hurt by my miscommunication
>>> about our
>>> >>>>>> setbacks.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I promised to deliver what people were owed and I continue working
>>> >>>>>> with the development team to achieve that.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I apologized to David and everyone on the team who worked without
>>> pay
>>> >>>>>> at the end of our funding and I do so again now for not being
>>> able to
>>> >>>>>> pay folks until we first fulfill our obligations to the backers.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I apologize to you Al as a member of the Noisebridge community
>>> for the
>>> >>>>>> negativity this cloud of disappointment has made you feel.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> We're now working hard on the game and delivering backer T-shirt
>>> >>>>>> rewards.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> You can try the latest beta at http://www.primerlabs.com (click
>>> Guest
>>> >>>>>> Mode in-game) and let us know what you think.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> For Al and whomever else wants to know more of the Code Hero's
>>> >>>>>> history:
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I started Code Hero, a game that teaches Unity game programming.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I applied to YCombinator with a friend and we recruited a small
>>> team
>>> >>>>>> to help build the prototype.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> We got interviewed but didn't get accepted to YCombinator.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> The team split up after that, as often happens with teams who are
>>> >>>>>> counting on funding and don't get it.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I continued working on it for a year and raised a small amount of
>>> >>>>>> money to survive..
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I released a first alpha that taught the player enough to solve
>>> >>>>>> Portal-like puzzle levels and beat FizzBoss.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> The game showed enough promise that it was time to hire a team to
>>> work
>>> >>>>>> on it.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> We raised $170K on Kickstarter with the help of many supporters.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> We hired and paid most of the team to work on it full time. Some
>>> of us
>>> >>>>>> already had jobs and worked on it part-time. David was one of
>>> those.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> We worked together at IGN's Indie Open House incubator alongside
>>> other
>>> >>>>>> indie game dev teams and learned a lot from them and other game
>>> dev
>>> >>>>>> mentors.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> An investor offered to fund us beyond the Kickstarter and we
>>> worked
>>> >>>>>> with them to set up the company for that to happen.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> We were invited by Kickstarter to exhibit with them at PAX East
>>> and we
>>> >>>>>> showed the second alpha there with a new orientation level.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> We worked on it more to implement the rest of the game's
>>> introductory
>>> >>>>>> levels and level editor gameplay mechanics.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> We were invited to show the third alpha at PAX Prime in the Indie
>>> >>>>>> Megabooth.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> What we showed was a big step forward but it was still buggy and
>>> >>>>>> incomplete and there was a lot of work remaining.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> At that point we were nearly out of funds and were counting on the
>>> >>>>>> investor to fund us further.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> While we were there, the investor withdrew their offer and we were
>>> >>>>>> faced with a difficult financial situation:
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> If we continued working on it, there was no guarantee that we'd
>>> have
>>> >>>>>> the money to get paid for it.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I paid some of the developers out of my own pocket at that point
>>> to
>>> >>>>>> keep things going but without a funding source, the paid team
>>> stopped
>>> >>>>>> working at the end of the month.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I and a few other volunteer programmers continued working on it
>>> and
>>> >>>>>> released more alphas.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> We made Kickstarter updates, but there were long delays between
>>> them
>>> >>>>>> and Kickstarter backers got frustrated.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I tried to raise money to rehire team members to work on the
>>> project
>>> >>>>>> and I continued working on it unpaid.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Then some frustrated Kickstarter backers made threats and shared
>>> their
>>> >>>>>> complaints with journalists.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> The writers spoke to some team members who were understandably
>>> >>>>>> disappointed at not getting paid after the project ran out of
>>> funds
>>> >>>>>> before completion.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> In our Kickstarter update, we apologized to backers for delays.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> We vowed to fulfill backer rewards, to complete the game, to
>>> rebuild
>>> >>>>>> the team, and to eventually refund backers and repay teammates
>>> >>>>>> including David wages we couldn't pay when we ran out of funds.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I recruited a project coordinator who has helped organize our new
>>> team
>>> >>>>>> and I did contract work to earn enough money to start producing
>>> >>>>>> Kickstarter rewards.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Since then, we've released Code Hero Beta 0.2 and we're preparing
>>> to
>>> >>>>>> print and ship the t-shirts for backers.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> You can download it at http://www.primerlabs.com and try it (just
>>> >>>>>> click Guest Mode in-game).
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> We've got a long way to go still.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> We've been rewriting the server backend, redesigning the alpha
>>> levels
>>> >>>>>> to match the new beta level design style, and we welcome feedback
>>> and
>>> >>>>>> suggestions to make it better.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> There are still many critics who've interpreted our delays between
>>> >>>>>> updates as proof that Code Hero is a scam, skeptics who think we
>>> can't
>>> >>>>>> finish the game, and worried supporters who wonder if we can pull
>>> it
>>> >>>>>> off.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Despite all the mistakes, setbacks and criticism so far we're
>>> learning
>>> >>>>>> from it and persevering to finish Code Hero.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> We have a lot of enthusiasm to finish the game and teach people
>>> >>>>>> programming,
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I am also dedicated to teaching Unity programming at Noisebridge
>>> and
>>> >>>>>> I'd like to expand the number of teachers who can do that so it
>>> >>>>>> doesn't depend on just me and whomever I can bring to help teach
>>> for
>>> >>>>>> the class to happen.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I've taught Gamebridge classes for over a year with a few breaks
>>> when
>>> >>>>>> travel or work prevented me from being there, and lately I've
>>> been too
>>> >>>>>> busy working on Code Hero to make it.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> If anybody is interested in learning Unity programming and/or
>>> learning
>>> >>>>>> to teach, I'll be expanding on the the teaching materials I've
>>> used
>>> >>>>>> for the classes at Noisebridge, Hack The Future and other
>>> workshops
>>> >>>>>> and sharing them in an organized spot with a mailing list for
>>> people
>>> >>>>>> who are teaching and attending to notify each other of class
>>> plans.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I'd like to hold a teacher teaching class soon and I'll contact
>>> >>>>>> everyone who contacts me with interest in participating.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> PS:
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I have not addressed every single concern or claim people have
>>> made
>>> >>>>>> here because this is already too long for those dedicated enough
>>> to
>>> >>>>>> read it all.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> However, I'll answer any questions people have via email or here.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Keep in mind that there are some made-up claims out there like
>>> people
>>> >>>>>> saying I flew to Amsterdam with Kickstarter funds.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> In reality, I was paid including flight and expenses to teach a
>>> >>>>>> programming workshop in Amsterdam. No Kickstarter money was spent
>>> on
>>> >>>>>> that.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> People speculated that we somehow misused our funds simply because
>>> >>>>>> they were worried at our lack of communication and assuming the
>>> >>>>>> worst.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> We were required to keep careful accounting of project costs by
>>> >>>>>> investors who required us to spend project money carefully.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> ᐧ
>>> >>>>>> The reality is one which many game projects have in common: We
>>> put all
>>> >>>>>> our resources into paying staff to build a game that took longer
>>> to
>>> >>>>>> finish than we had funding for.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> In hindsight, I should have made half as ambitious a game and
>>> polished
>>> >>>>>> it with the resources we had and set aside our bigger plans for
>>> >>>>>> component scripting and editor gameplay till after the first
>>> polished
>>> >>>>>> release.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> What we completed with the funding we had was the technical core
>>> of
>>> >>>>>> the ambitious editor design, and what we're completing now is the
>>> >>>>>> polished content that makes good on that design one level at a
>>> time.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I owe a thanks to those who speak up on my behalf, and I hope the
>>> >>>>>> critics will give us another chance as they see the game improve.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Al Sweigart <
>>> asweigart at gmail.com>
>>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>> If he's ever around the space again, I'll introduce you to
>>> David. He
>>> >>>>>>> was a 3D artist employed at a studio who left his job to work for
>>> >>>>>>> Alex. The agreement was that Alex would match his previous
>>> salary.
>>> >>>>>>> After 3 months, David was only paid for one month, and less than
>>> what
>>> >>>>>>> they had agreed on. David finally realized he wasn't going to
>>> ever
>>> >>>>>>> see a check, and quit. The thing is, this was only a couple
>>> months
>>> >>>>>>> after the Kickstarter, so Alex had plenty of funds. David will
>>> also
>>> >>>>>>> tell you how Alex's personality made him difficult to work with,
>>> how
>>> >>>>>>> he took credit for other people's work, and basically exploited
>>> >>>>>>> people who really believed in the project. There were several
>>> people
>>> >>>>>>> who worked with him, got fed up, and then left. He's always
>>> >>>>>>> recruiting new people.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> Meanwhile, Alex has no accounting whatsoever for how the
>>> $170,000 he
>>> >>>>>>> received was spent. He didn't even reveal it was all gone until
>>> half
>>> >>>>>>> a year after the fact.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> If he wants to help train new teachers in Unity or lead some
>>> classes,
>>> >>>>>>> that's great. But as soon as he asks them to contribute to Code
>>> Hero,
>>> >>>>>>> that's when people need to politely and firmly tell him No.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> -Al
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 4:09 PM, jarrod hicks <hicksu at gmail.com
>>> >
>>> >>>>>>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>>> I was not aware of troubles with the Code Hero project, that is
>>> a
>>> >>>>>>>> bummer.
>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>> As far as being a positive example, contributor, and someone who
>>> >>>>>>>> should have the nerve to be at Noisebridge. Alex was one of
>>> those
>>> >>>>>>>> who
>>> >>>>>>>> stepped up when my partner asked the Noisebridge community for
>>> help
>>> >>>>>>>> showing her physics students the wonders and possibilities of
>>> >>>>>>>> Noisebridge, and in turn the greater hacker/maker community. He
>>> >>>>>>>> worked
>>> >>>>>>>> with rotating groups of her students and within 20 - 30 minutes
>>> he
>>> >>>>>>>> had
>>> >>>>>>>> them making games and seeing the basic possibilities of
>>> programming
>>> >>>>>>>> that many of them were not aware of. Alex, and all those who
>>> >>>>>>>> helped,
>>> >>>>>>>> showed Noisebridge at its best that day, and my ongoing
>>> commitment
>>> >>>>>>>> to
>>> >>>>>>>> this space/community is in large part because of people like
>>> Alex.
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>> >>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>> >>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>> >>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>> >>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>> >>>
>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>> >>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>> >>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>> >>
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Oren Beck
>>>
>>> 816.632.3695
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>
>>
>
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