[Noisebridge-discuss] Noisebridge House Rules

Mon Mar 24 18:58:06 UTC 2014

Thank you Naomi, you are right.    good point.

On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 11:56 AM, Naomi Most <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:

> As I wrote on a pull request of yours, Greg (a comment which I can no
> longer locate to link to):
>
> I'm concerned that these changes presume quite a lot about the
> capacities and abilities of the CWG even before it has had a chance to
> ramp up.
>
> I do *like* what you've written, but it's premature to legislate a
> flow of problems into the CWG before it's even been born.
>
> On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Kevin <bfb at riseup.net> wrote:
> > On March 24, 2014 11:21:39 AM PDT, Gregory Dillon <
> gregorydillon at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> I met to collaborate with Kevin regarding the house rules proposal.
> >> We
> >> had a full and frank conversation, and  found significant agreement in
> >> purposes and aspirations.
> >>
> >> As part of that process, I have created my draft of a document, which
> >> I
> >> prefer to call fair usage policy.   It is now on the github repository
> >> as apull
> >> request.<
> https://github.com/noisebridge/bureaucracy/pull/24/files?short_path=72650ec#diff-72650ec3320e10419ed3f724d40e4a68
> >
> >>
> >> I hope that we can keep this conversation continuing and productive.
> >> I
> >> don't know of any deadline, but I think it would be excellent if Kevin
> >> could also provide his draft of house rules with enough time for
> >> people to
> >> review before the Tuesday meeting.
> >>
> >> Bests
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 9:27 AM, immonad <immonad at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Did anyone else get a good laugh,  that  during the last two weekly
> >> > meetings at least one person appeared  to be sleeping just a few
> >> feet away.
> >> > Each had a smirky smile as they appeared to awaken from  their naps.
> >>  These
> >> > guys practically  lives at NB and are against any talk against using
> >> it as
> >> > such. One of them (newest member) was also against the action of
> >> asking
> >> > people to leave for drugs.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > -------- Original message --------
> >> > From: Al Sweigart
> >> > Date:03/23/2014 5:26 PM (GMT-08:00)
> >> > To: Dan Cote
> >> > Cc: Jessica Ross ,noisebridge-discuss
> >> > Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] Noisebridge House Rules
> >> >
> >> > "Community standards" is just doublespeak for "rules that are
> >> optional".
> >> > This is generally espoused by the crowd that likes sleeping
> >> overnight at
> >> > Noisebridge, because it lets them continue sleeping overnight at
> >> > Noisebridge.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 6:30 PM, Dan Cote
> >> <terminationshok at gmail.com>wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> It's a long standing property of Noisebridge that we favor
> >> individual
> >> >> freedom over codified policies. I know that we are experiencing an
> >> identity
> >> >> crisis at the moment, and we are rethinking how we do things, which
> >> is
> >> >> good. All of the line items look fine to me, but their name and
> >> tone is
> >> >> authoritarian. I would not support this in it's current form and
> >> >> respectfully ask that it be reworked before being brought for
> >> consensus
> >> >> again.
> >> >>
> >> >> We have and have had community standards that are very similar to
> >> these,
> >> >> and my suggestion would be that we remove "house rules" and we
> >> clean up and
> >> >> revise "community standards."
> >> >>
> >> >> What we need is not official sounding rules, but consistent and
> >> >> compassionate reinforcement of our community standards. I would and
> >> do
> >> >> support anyone who asks someone to leave based on the behavior
> >> patterns
> >> >> listed on either list.
> >> >>
> >> >> https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Community_standards
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 5:07 PM, Gregory Dillon
> >> <gregorydillon at gmail.com>wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Keving   I'd like to come to a good fair and workable solution.
> >> I'm
> >> >>> somewhat reticent  because I'm concerned that collaborating will
> >> slide into
> >> >>> a process that is more about delaying than implementing a
> >> solution.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> But please contact me off-list and let's talk.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 4:55 PM, Kevin <bfb at riseup.net> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> On March 19, 2014 12:19:44 PM PDT, Gregory Dillon <
> >> >>>> gregorydillon at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>>> > Kevin,
> >> >>>> > No one said Folsom prison for naptime.
> >> >>>> >
> >> >>>> >  Are you - or are you not, going to include prohibiting
> >> sleeping at
> >> >>>> > Noisebridge in your version of the house rules.?
> >> >>>> >
> >> >>>> >
> >> >>>> > On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 12:15 PM, Kevin <bfb at riseup.net> wrote:
> >> >>>> >
> >> >>>> > > On March 19, 2014 11:45:24 AM PDT, Gregory Dillon
> >> >>>> > <gregorydillon at gmail.com>
> >> >>>> > > wrote:
> >> >>>> > > > Tthe meeting notes say
> >> >>>> > > >  Kevin is willing to accept prohibiting sleeping at
> >> Noisebridge,
> >> >>>> > > > - Will that be part of your proposal?
> >> >>>> > > >
> >> >>>> > > >
> >> >>>> > > >
> >> >>>> > > >
> >> >>>> > > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 11:31 AM, Kevin <bfb at riseup.net>
> >> wrote:
> >> >>>> > > >
> >> >>>> > > > > On March 19, 2014 11:07:24 AM PDT, Jessica Ross
> >> >>>> > > > <jessica.r.ross at gmail.com>
> >> >>>> > > > > wrote:
> >> >>>> > > > > > Why can't you guys rebut this with "It's against the
> >> terms of
> >> >>>> > the
> >> >>>> > > > > > lease and
> >> >>>> > > > > > could get us evicted"?
> >> >>>> > > > > >
> >> >>>> > > > > > It's BS that you're even still debating this!
> >> >>>> > > > > >
> >> >>>> > > > > >
> >> >>>> > > > > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 12:44 PM, Al Sweigart
> >> >>>> > > > <asweigart at gmail.com>
> >> >>>> > > > > > wrote:
> >> >>>> > > > > >
> >> >>>> > > > > > > Kevin is against banning sleeping at the space
> >> because he
> >> >>>> > and
> >> >>>> > > > his
> >> >>>> > > > > > friends
> >> >>>> > > > > > > like to sleep at the space. He helped build the
> >> "hacker
> >> >>>> > stacker"
> >> >>>> > > > > > bunk beds
> >> >>>> > > > > > > that were in the space which, unsurprisingly, were
> >> used for
> >> >>>> > more
> >> >>>> > > > > > than just
> >> >>>> > > > > > > short naps in the space.
> >> >>>> > > > > > >
> >> >>>> > > > > > > Kevin will single-handedly block any measure to ban
> >> sleeping
> >> >>>> > > > without
> >> >>>> > > > > > > compromise, because consensus lets him do this. He is
> >> >>>> > against
> >> >>>> > > > any
> >> >>>> > > > > > actual
> >> >>>> > > > > > > punitive consequences because he knows that even if
> >> people
> >> >>>> > are
> >> >>>> > > > woken
> >> >>>> > > > > > up and
> >> >>>> > > > > > > told not to sleep at the space, they can just do so
> >> again
> >> >>>> > the
> >> >>>> > > > next
> >> >>>> > > > > > night
> >> >>>> > > > > > > (or just later that same morning).
> >> >>>> > > > > > >
> >> >>>> > > > > > > Hey, if the majority of Noisebridge members said they
> >> were
> >> >>>> > fine
> >> >>>> > > > with
> >> >>>> > > > > > > people sleeping at the space, I would back down on my
> >> >>>> > stance.
> >> >>>> > > > > > Whereas Kevin
> >> >>>> > > > > > > will barge in on a meeting an hour late and then get
> >> his
> >> >>>> > way.
> >> >>>> > > > > > >
> >> >>>> > > > > > > The thing that gets me is that he doesn't even have
> >> to
> >> >>>> > publicly
> >> >>>> > > > > > defend his
> >> >>>> > > > > > > unpopular view in order to get his way. (Note that he
> >> didn't
> >> >>>> > > > mention
> >> >>>> > > > > > > sleeping at all in his email on this thread, even
> >> though
> >> >>>> > that's
> >> >>>> > > > the
> >> >>>> > > > > > > elephant in the room.) All he has to do is keep
> >> saying
> >> >>>> > "there
> >> >>>> > > > needs
> >> >>>> > > > > > to more
> >> >>>> > > > > > > discussion" week after week until the issue fades
> >> into the
> >> >>>> > > > > > background once
> >> >>>> > > > > > > more.
> >> >>>> > > > > > >
> >> >>>> > > > > > >
> >> >>>> > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 12:35 AM, Kevin Schiesser
> >> >>>> > > > <bfb at riseup.net>
> >> >>>> > > > > > wrote:
> >> >>>> > > > > > >
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> Brandon Edens:
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> > Hi all,
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> >
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> > The consensus of Noisebridge is that we have some
> >> house
> >> >>>> > > > rules.
> >> >>>> > > > > > You can
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> read
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> > about them here...
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> >
> >> >>>> > > > > > >>
> >> >>>> > > > > >
> >> >>>> > > > >
> >> >>>> > > >
> >> >>>> > >
> >> >>>> >
> >> >>>>
> >>
> https://github.com/noisebridge/bureaucracy/blob/master/rules/house-rules.md
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> >
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> > Enjoy!
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> > Brandon
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> >
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> > _______________________________________________
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> >
> >> >>>> > > >
> >> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> >
> >> >>>> > > > > > >>
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> I barged into the open meeting an hour late tonight
> >> and
> >> >>>> > > > rejected
> >> >>>> > > > > > the
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> civility of passing this proposal, given I had aired
> >> >>>> > > > unaddressed
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> concerns. Discussion on the proposal was reopened,
> >> hence
> >> >>>> > > > > > Noisebridge has
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> not come to consensus on 'house rules'.
> >> >>>> > > > > > >>
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> I will be preparing an alternative draft. If anyone
> >> wants
> >> >>>> > to
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> collaborate, contact me via email or let's work
> >> though
> >> >>>> > github.
> >> >>>> > > > > > >>
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> Generally, I favor 'community agreements'. I oppose
> >> >>>> > punitive
> >> >>>> > > > > > measures,
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> and do not believe punitive measure will positively
> >> >>>> > transform
> >> >>>> > > > > > Noisebridge.
> >> >>>> > > > > > >>
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> If agreements are to be codified, we should start
> >> with the
> >> >>>> > most
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> abundantly clear agreements... We agree not to
> >> attempt to
> >> >>>> > > > repair
> >> >>>> > > > > > the
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> elevator, not to go on the roof (unless
> >> maintenancing an
> >> >>>> > > > antenna),
> >> >>>> > > > > > not
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> to go in the basement, not to go on the fire escape,
> >> not to
> >> >>>> > > > live at
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> Noisebridge. We also agree that projects kept on the
> >> hacker
> >> >>>> > > > shelves
> >> >>>> > > > > > in
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> the SW corner of the space or kept in personal
> >> lockers
> >> >>>> > belong
> >> >>>> > > > to
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> participants in the community and are not for
> >> general
> >> >>>> > purpose
> >> >>>> > > > > > hacking.
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> <Add your own agreement>.
> >> >>>> > > > > > >>
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> -Kevin
> >> >>>> > > > > > >>
> >> >>>> > > > > > >>
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >> >>>> > > > > > >> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >> >>>> > > > > > >>
> >> >>>> > > >
> >> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >> >>>> > > > > > >>
> >> >>>> > > > > > >>
> >> >>>> > > > > > >
> >> >>>> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> >> >>>> > > > > > > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >> >>>> > > > > > > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >> >>>> > > > > > >
> >> >>>> >
> >> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >> >>>> > > > > > >
> >> >>>> > > > > > >
> >> >>>> > > > > >
> >> >>>> > > > > >
> >> >>>> > > > > > --
> >> >>>> > > > > > Jessica R. Ross
> >> >>>> > > > > > jessica.r.ross at gmail.com
> >> >>>> > > > >
> >> >>>> > > > > I'm very open to collaborating on a revised Draft of this
> >> >>>> > document.
> >> >>>> > > > >  Please read the meeting notes or try to understand what
> >> I wrote
> >> >>>> > > > before
> >> >>>> > > > > jumping in with critique. Polarization, accusation, and
> >> >>>> > hyperbole
> >> >>>> > > > are not
> >> >>>> > > > > effective.
> >> >>>> > > > >
> >> >>>> > > > > For context...
> >> >>>> > > > >
> >> >>>> > > > > At every prior meeting I said that I had concerns with
> >> the house
> >> >>>> > > > rules
> >> >>>> > > > > proposal. Often, the agenda was too full of bannings to
> >> have
> >> >>>> > > > substantive
> >> >>>> > > > > discussion of my concerns. I was shocked to arrive late
> >> and hear
> >> >>>> > > > consensus
> >> >>>> > > > > was reached without having had opportunity for
> >> discussion. The
> >> >>>> > group
> >> >>>> > > > agreed
> >> >>>> > > > > I was previously misunderstood, the proposal is not
> >> urgent, and
> >> >>>> > that
> >> >>>> > > > more
> >> >>>> > > > > discussion is needed.
> >> >>>> > > > >
> >> >>>> > > > > Hence more discussion and reaching out to the community.
> >> >>>> > > > >
> >> >>>> > > > > _______________________________________________
> >> >>>> > > > > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >> >>>> > > > > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >> >>>> > > > >
> >> >>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >> >>>> > > > >
> >> >>>> > > >
> >> >>>> > > >
> >> >>>> > > >
> >> >>>> > > > --
> >> >>>> > > > Let's stay in touch.  Greg
> >> >>>> > >
> >> >>>> > > I'm ideologically opposed to criminalizing sleep at
> >> Noisebride. Many
> >> >>>> > > organizations understand the benefits of rest, and allow
> >> sleep to
> >> >>>> > occur
> >> >>>> > > alongside work/hacking/creating.
> >> >>>> > >
> >> >>>> > > I recognize Noisebridge has problems Many have identified
> >> sleep as
> >> >>>> > one. I
> >> >>>> > > maintain its a symptom and not a root problem. However, I'm
> >> open to
> >> >>>> > > experiments. We tried HackerStackers... If folks want to try
> >> >>>> > prohibition, I
> >> >>>> > > won't stand in the way.
> >> >>>> > >
> >> >>>> >
> >> >>>> >
> >> >>>> >
> >> >>>> > --
> >> >>>> > Let's stay in touch.  Greg
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Greg,
> >> >>>> Do you want to collaborate? Do you like the existing wording on
> >> the
> >> >>>> prohibition of sleep at Noisebridge?
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Left to my own devices I would first codify existing agreements,
> >> then
> >> >>>> add new agreements. This pattern allows us to test additional
> >> agreements
> >> >>>> independently.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> -Kevin
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> --
> >> >>> Let's stay in touch.  Greg
> >> >>>
> >> >>> _______________________________________________
> >> >>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >> >>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >> >>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >> >> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >> >> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >> > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >> > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Let's stay in touch.  Greg
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >
> > Thanks Greg. That's great. I also enjoyed a spontaneous gathering of 4
> or 5 folks interested in this discussion on Wednesday night. Some notes
> were taken, and suggestions made. It would also be great if the notes make
> it to the mailing list or sub thread that I started as a result of that
> gathering.
> >
> > I'll write up my preferred language later tonight.
> >
> > -Kevin
> > _______________________________________________
> > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>
>
>
> --
> Naomi Theora Most
> naomi at nthmost.com
> +1-415-728-7490
>
> skype: nthmost
>
> http://twitter.com/nthmost
>

-- 
Let's stay in touch.  Greg
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