[Noisebridge-discuss] access for members and associate members at all hours

Naomi Most pnaomi at gmail.com
Mon May 12 21:08:44 UTC 2014

What?  Who's talking about "member's only hours"?

We're only talking about putting a lock at the front door that only
opens for people who have the right key, and those people will happen
to be Members and Associate Members.  This puts a forcing-function on
the "sponsorship" concept on activities happening between certain
hours of the night.  (I would put it at midnight, personally.)

Jake, I'm a little saddened by your post, because I think people who
skim the mailing list will read it and have their suspicions about
NB's exclusiveness confirmed, when AGAIN it's just a misunderstanding.

We're not having Member's Only Hours.  End of story.


On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 1:58 PM, Jeffrey Carl Faden
<jeffreyatw at gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree with your overall assessment, Jake. I would also support the
> language change in your proposal which more clearly defines the roles and
> privileges of our member tiers. I agree that anyone who wants to be able to
> work at Noisebridge should be able to do so at any time, and if they are not
> a member, then one should sponsor their presence.
> I disagree, though, that your proposal will always make it easier for a
> member to approach someone and ask them to leave. That is because,
> regardless of what they are doing, the people who abuse the space can often
> make excuses that are hard to refute:
> - "I'm an associate member / full member, my name just isn't on the wiki"
> - "Oh, so-and-so said I could be here (but they left|but they don't
> exist|but I'm lying)"
> - "Why are you singling me out?"
> - "I don't have to tell you my name or anything about me"
> - or they might threaten you with harm or otherwise scare you.
> The reason I still think an RFID system should be in-place is because while
> it is important to enforce these roles at all times, it's not always
> possible. A second layer of computer-controlled access control will make it
> harder for people to make their way into the space when those who are
> available to sponsor them are less available.
> Bruce Schneier is keen to use the phrase "security theater" to describe
> systems that only seem to enforce restrictions but can easily be
> circumvented by those with enough intent. And if you'll notice in the other
> thread I've responded to, I've labeled this RFID system as such. It is not a
> silver bullet, but it might make it easier to get the job done.
> If we're being honest, if associate and full members are the only ones who
> should ever be able to enter the space on their own, then it would make
> sense to give them all access on this RFID system and keep the door locked
> 24/7 (just like the gate is). This technology won't solve our problems, but
> all-hours access restriction seems like the most effective way of keeping it
> relevant. Wouldn't you agree?
> (BTW, having just written the last paragraph, I'm not saying I agree with
> such a drastic measure. But anyone who's serious about members-only access
> should see why it makes sense.)
> Jeffrey
> On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 1:19 PM, Jake <jake at spaz.org> wrote:
>> I saw mention of the "members only hours" concept again recently and i am
>> sad that people don't remember why that failed.  It was terrible.
>> I recommended from the start, and i still recommend, having the same
>> policy at all times.  There was actually a nice hacker visiting from Germany
>> who was kicked out of noisebridge only because it was 11PM and people were
>> just following orders.  The after-hours thing is a dead idea.
>> I really think noisebridge should pass my last proposal, which makes it
>> really straightforward who can be in the space, at all times:
>> https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2013-November/040268.html
>>  "Noisebridge is open to Members, Associate Members, and guests sponsored
>>   by same, at all times.  Any person who is not one of the above may be
>>   asked to leave if no Member or Associate Member present wishes to
>>   sponsor them at that time, with no other justification being necessary.
>>   People coming to Noisebridge who don't know anyone should be introduced
>>   to members who are present so that sponsorship can occur if members
>>   present choose to do so at that time.  Noisebridge should present itself
>>   as 'open to public visitors and guests as often as possible'"
>> on another note, i see that people have been talking about the RFID thing
>> as if it is going to solve social problems.  I don't believe that's true. I
>> think it's a great project and worth doing, but ultimately the social
>> problems we are dealing with will ONLY be solved by people like us showing
>> up at the space, and caring for the space in-person.
>> Some people mentioned they were at the space the other day, talking about
>> the RFID stuff, while two people were sleeping in the kitchen, and They Did
>> Nothing.  I understand why, because for too long Noisebridge has not
>> provided an effective framework for justifying or supporting the ejection of
>> people for sleeping, or general misuse of the space.  My proposal above
>> addresses that problem, in a practical way that eliminates the blame game.
>> With the above proposal, a person can be asked to leave without an
>> accusation of sleeping or habitating or anything like that - simply because
>> there is no member present who wishes to sponsor them.  It makes it much
>> easier to ask someone to leave, which is the only way we can take our
>> hackerspace back from mission st. chaos.
>> in the words of Bruce Schneier:
>> "If you think technology can solve your security problems, then you don't
>> understand the problems and you don't understand the technology."
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Naomi Theora Most
naomi at nthmost.com

skype: nthmost


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