[Noisebridge-discuss] go to the space

Mon May 12 23:52:56 UTC 2014

+1024 to Jake


On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 2:45 PM, Jake <jake at spaz.org> wrote:
> one of the points i am trying to make is:
>
> GO TO THE SPACE.  spend as much time as you can there.  That is the only
> thing that is really going to make a difference.  Nobody is expecting you to
> be there as much as Rayc was, but do what you can.
>
> and maybe someone will make the proposal that I recommended, and then you
> will be able to use it to help filter people at noisebridge between those
> who are willing and able to become associate members, or sponsors of same,
> and those who are just using the space for their own purposes at the expense
> of what we've been trying to do with it for so long.
>
> -jake
>
> On Mon, 12 May 2014, Naomi Most wrote:
>
>> Also, Jake, you're absolutely right about this:
>>
>>> on another note, i see that people have been talking about the RFID thing
>>> as if it is going to solve social problems.  I don't believe that's true. I
>>> think it's a great project and worth doing, but ultimately the social
>>> problems we are dealing with will ONLY be solved by people like us showing
>>> up at the space, and caring for the space in-person.
>>
>>
>>
>> Don't worry, the people who are actually working on this stuff right
>> now do understand this.  We're just not going to let that stop us from
>> doing some experiments.
>>
>> --Naomi
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 2:08 PM, Naomi Most <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> What?  Who's talking about "member's only hours"?
>>>
>>> We're only talking about putting a lock at the front door that only
>>> opens for people who have the right key, and those people will happen
>>> to be Members and Associate Members.  This puts a forcing-function on
>>> the "sponsorship" concept on activities happening between certain
>>> hours of the night.  (I would put it at midnight, personally.)
>>>
>>> Jake, I'm a little saddened by your post, because I think people who
>>> skim the mailing list will read it and have their suspicions about
>>> NB's exclusiveness confirmed, when AGAIN it's just a misunderstanding.
>>>
>>> We're not having Member's Only Hours.  End of story.
>>>
>>> --Naomi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 1:58 PM, Jeffrey Carl Faden
>>> <jeffreyatw at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I agree with your overall assessment, Jake. I would also support the
>>>> language change in your proposal which more clearly defines the roles
>>>> and
>>>> privileges of our member tiers. I agree that anyone who wants to be able
>>>> to
>>>> work at Noisebridge should be able to do so at any time, and if they are
>>>> not
>>>> a member, then one should sponsor their presence.
>>>>
>>>> I disagree, though, that your proposal will always make it easier for a
>>>> member to approach someone and ask them to leave. That is because,
>>>> regardless of what they are doing, the people who abuse the space can
>>>> often
>>>> make excuses that are hard to refute:
>>>> - "I'm an associate member / full member, my name just isn't on the
>>>> wiki"
>>>> - "Oh, so-and-so said I could be here (but they left|but they don't
>>>> exist|but I'm lying)"
>>>> - "Why are you singling me out?"
>>>> - "I don't have to tell you my name or anything about me"
>>>> - or they might threaten you with harm or otherwise scare you.
>>>>
>>>> The reason I still think an RFID system should be in-place is because
>>>> while
>>>> it is important to enforce these roles at all times, it's not always
>>>> possible. A second layer of computer-controlled access control will make
>>>> it
>>>> harder for people to make their way into the space when those who are
>>>> available to sponsor them are less available.
>>>>
>>>> Bruce Schneier is keen to use the phrase "security theater" to describe
>>>> systems that only seem to enforce restrictions but can easily be
>>>> circumvented by those with enough intent. And if you'll notice in the
>>>> other
>>>> thread I've responded to, I've labeled this RFID system as such. It is
>>>> not a
>>>> silver bullet, but it might make it easier to get the job done.
>>>>
>>>> If we're being honest, if associate and full members are the only ones
>>>> who
>>>> should ever be able to enter the space on their own, then it would make
>>>> sense to give them all access on this RFID system and keep the door
>>>> locked
>>>> 24/7 (just like the gate is). This technology won't solve our problems,
>>>> but
>>>> all-hours access restriction seems like the most effective way of
>>>> keeping it
>>>> relevant. Wouldn't you agree?
>>>>
>>>> (BTW, having just written the last paragraph, I'm not saying I agree
>>>> with
>>>> such a drastic measure. But anyone who's serious about members-only
>>>> access
>>>> should see why it makes sense.)
>>>>
>>>> Jeffrey
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 1:19 PM, Jake <jake at spaz.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I saw mention of the "members only hours" concept again recently and i
>>>>> am
>>>>> sad that people don't remember why that failed.  It was terrible.
>>>>>
>>>>> I recommended from the start, and i still recommend, having the same
>>>>> policy at all times.  There was actually a nice hacker visiting from
>>>>> Germany
>>>>> who was kicked out of noisebridge only because it was 11PM and people
>>>>> were
>>>>> just following orders.  The after-hours thing is a dead idea.
>>>>>
>>>>> I really think noisebridge should pass my last proposal, which makes it
>>>>> really straightforward who can be in the space, at all times:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2013-November/040268.html
>>>>>
>>>>>  "Noisebridge is open to Members, Associate Members, and guests
>>>>> sponsored
>>>>>   by same, at all times.  Any person who is not one of the above may be
>>>>>   asked to leave if no Member or Associate Member present wishes to
>>>>>   sponsor them at that time, with no other justification being
>>>>> necessary.
>>>>>
>>>>>   People coming to Noisebridge who don't know anyone should be
>>>>> introduced
>>>>>   to members who are present so that sponsorship can occur if members
>>>>>   present choose to do so at that time.  Noisebridge should present
>>>>> itself
>>>>>   as 'open to public visitors and guests as often as possible'"
>>>>>
>>>>> on another note, i see that people have been talking about the RFID
>>>>> thing
>>>>> as if it is going to solve social problems.  I don't believe that's
>>>>> true. I
>>>>> think it's a great project and worth doing, but ultimately the social
>>>>> problems we are dealing with will ONLY be solved by people like us
>>>>> showing
>>>>> up at the space, and caring for the space in-person.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some people mentioned they were at the space the other day, talking
>>>>> about
>>>>> the RFID stuff, while two people were sleeping in the kitchen, and They
>>>>> Did
>>>>> Nothing.  I understand why, because for too long Noisebridge has not
>>>>> provided an effective framework for justifying or supporting the
>>>>> ejection of
>>>>> people for sleeping, or general misuse of the space.  My proposal above
>>>>> addresses that problem, in a practical way that eliminates the blame
>>>>> game.
>>>>>
>>>>> With the above proposal, a person can be asked to leave without an
>>>>> accusation of sleeping or habitating or anything like that - simply
>>>>> because
>>>>> there is no member present who wishes to sponsor them.  It makes it
>>>>> much
>>>>> easier to ask someone to leave, which is the only way we can take our
>>>>> hackerspace back from mission st. chaos.
>>>>>
>>>>> in the words of Bruce Schneier:
>>>>> "If you think technology can solve your security problems, then you
>>>>> don't
>>>>> understand the problems and you don't understand the technology."
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Naomi Theora Most
>>> naomi at nthmost.com
>>> +1-415-728-7490
>>>
>>> skype: nthmost
>>>
>>> http://twitter.com/nthmost
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Naomi Theora Most
>> naomi at nthmost.com
>> +1-415-728-7490
>>
>> skype: nthmost
>>
>> http://twitter.com/nthmost
>>
>


-- 
Naomi Theora Most
naomi at nthmost.com
+1-415-728-7490

skype: nthmost

http://twitter.com/nthmost