[Noisebridge-discuss] Re: Mystery package? (Dogs Blood Rising reference?)

Arram Sabeti arramsabeti at gmail.com
Fri Dec 5 01:04:37 UTC 2008


In that case you'll note that I put 'eternal soul' in quotes in my original
query. As a metaphor for personal integrity and autonomy I'm not interested
in a sale.

As far as sepulchral escape velocity goes - may Kurzweil live forever!

Regards,
Arram

On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 4:52 PM, L. Morningstar <el.morningstar at gmail.com>wrote:

> Yes, you'll note that it was Eris who steered the discussion towards
> immortality. I maintained discussion around the notion of the "soul"
> and its "sale", which is an entirely different matter than immortality
> for me.
>
> For Eris, being a natural force of this universe itself and much
> closer to immortality through this property than I am, it comes more
> naturally for her to speak of "soul" and "immortality"
> interchangeably. For her, her natural force is her volition. I think
> this was her point with the skull.
>
> However, for more nuanced deities such as myself, things are a bit
> different. I have many names and many faces, but the natural force I
> am closest to would be evolution and the natural law, which requires
> the existence of at least some form of life or life-like replicating
> automatons to persist. So I absolutely agree with your point of the
> necessity of life and experience when it comes to immortality. Eris is
> a bit more removed from these requirements.
>
> In fact, in this sense, I am the ultimate gatekeeper on mortality in
> this realm, and I will not grant actual corporeal immortality to
> mortals until such time as they perfect themselves through evolution
> and iterative improvement to earn it for themselves. It is possible
> that mankind is close to achieving this, and therefore I look forward
> to welcoming your deification in more than just a metaphysical sense.
> Live long enough to live forever!
>
> That said, mortals are still welcome to join me and other deities in
> more metaphysical ego persistence in the meantime. Just be wary of
> surrendering your will to another's ego-creation unwittingly. Forever
> is a long time to serve.
>
> - L.
> .
> On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 12:11 AM, Arram Sabeti <arramsabeti at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > The view you present is an interesting one, and I can not be certain that
> > the flaw I perceive in your reasoning is sincere, or considering your
> famous
> > demagogic powers, knowingly woven.
> >
> > Though I may during my natural life create structures (as that rascal
> Jesus
> > did through Peter the rock) that continue to enact what may have been my
> > volition had I continued existence, it would hardly matter to me for I
> would
> > have no experience of it. Volition has virtue in that in brings about
> those
> > things which are pleasant and good to the senses.
> >
> > Whether or not you subscribe to the notion of Qualia (I must admit this
> to
> > be the weakest point in my own monist beliefs despite having sympathy for
> > Dennett) I think we may both agree that the occurrence of events which
> you
> > might otherwise find agreeable is really quite irrelevant if you never
> come
> > to have knowledge of them. This is well summarized in the famous quote by
> > Woody Allen: "I don't want to achieve immortality through my work, I want
> to
> > achieve it by not dying."
> >
> > These objections would apply to Eris' method of immortality as well.
> >
> > In Sincere Admiration,
> > Arram Sabeti
> >
> > These same objections would apply to Eris' method of immortality as well.
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 3:15 PM, L. Morningstar <el.morningstar at gmail.com
> >
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Arram,
> >>
> >> You ask an excellent question. However, since it is not clear to me
> >> which flavor of monism you subscribe to, I will do my best to answer
> >> your request in the general sense.
> >>
> >> Contrary to popular belief, I am not in the business of trading souls.
> >> Believe it or not, that is more commonly the business of the human
> >> invention known as 'religion'. Allow me to explain.
> >>
> >> Consider what a god is: A god is the aggregate belief in the existence
> >> of an entity by a group of people. By propagation this belief, the
> >> presence of an ego and volition through time is established. The major
> >> organized religions then, can be said to be far more interested in
> >> "buying" your "soul" than I am, as they mandate subservience of your
> >> will to their own ego-construction. These religions then in many ways
> >> serve to prevent you from possessing your own independent "eternal
> >> soul" even as they promise you eternal paradise for obedience and
> >> the surrender of your will.
> >>
> >> However, through various tricks (I suppose you would call them
> >> 'hacks'), it is possible to create an independent 'eternal soul' for
> >> yourself. The Dalai Lama is the most intriguing example of one of
> >> these hacks (a "Renegade Buddhist" with "five tons of flax", as Eris
> >> here would be sure to chime in), but really any figure able to
> >> manifest volition past the point of its death has succeeded in
> >> achieving an "eternal soul".
> >>
> >> So you see, the way to really possess an 'eternal soul' is to create
> >> one for yourself, independent of the will or commands of an external
> >> ego/god. I have no interest in "purchasing", controlling, or
> >> commanding said soul. I wish only to liberate you from those gods that
> >> would, and to have good company.
> >>
> >> For these same reasons, your admiration is greatly appreciated.
> >>
> >> - The Lightbringer
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 7:55 PM, Arram Sabeti <arramsabeti at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > *Claps*
> >> >
> >> > I'm a great admirer of yours Mr. Morningstar.
> >> >
> >> > As a monist, I am very interested in exchanging my 'eternal soul' for
> >> > earthly power and possessions. Do you still offer this exchange?
> >> >
> >> > Many Kind Regards,
> >> > Arram Sabeti
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 1:37 AM, L. Morningstar
> >> > <el.morningstar at gmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Confound you, woman! I bet you think this is pretty funny. Reminds me
> >> >> of that ceratogaulus rhinoceros stunt you pulled. We both know who
> had
> >> >> the last laugh there.
> >> >>
> >> >> When I next transubstantiate, you're going to get it.
> >
> >
>
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