[Noisebridge-discuss] Another DIYbio thread!

[Josh Perfetto]

Hi Christie,

I think there is a number of differences between DIYbio and the interest
group work that is going on:

1. As you mentioned, DIYbio SF does exist independently of NB, although
³operate² may be too strong a word given it¹s fairly informal current
organization.  It¹s formation was not out of NB, but as a SF Bay chapter of
a wider DIYbio quasi-organization.  Some prior NB members who were
interested in bio got involved with this SF DIYbio chapter and suggested NB
as a location for activities, basically introducing the other members to NB.
NB then seemed to become the de-facto location for activities for a subset
of the DIYbio group, though there are members who are not involved at the
83C space so ³colocated² would not be an accurate description either.  This
relationship was always very vague for me, and honestly I think this
vagueness is a cause of many of the problems these two groups are
experiencing right now.

2. DIYbio SF is more geographically distributed than I imagine the bulk of
your membership base is.  We have people from the south bay, peninsula,
north bay, and Sacramento.  There is really no concentration in SF.  This
impacts how often people can meet.  This situation is not ideal, but a
result of the relatively few people into DIYbio in the bay area right now.

3. DIYbio is a very new concept that is still being defined (it¹s been only
6 months since I first heard the term used, and I was involved in bio for
years).  The term itself is fairly broad (bird watching could be called DIY
biology suppose), but many people are more specifically interested in the
Synthetic Biology subset.  Within this subset it is still undefined and
unclear how things will turn out.  My observation is that what many of the
³DIY² people are trying to do is re-create the work that takes place in
university and corporate labs in a way that is cheaper, safer, and more
accessible, so that people can hack biology in their garage in a way similar
to the early computer industry.  If and how this would happen are still open
questions, and there are a lot of unknowns.  For example, do you have to use
some of the same dangerous chemicals that are regularly used in the bio lab,
or could we create cheaper, faster, and safer methods?  We don¹t know the
answers to these questions yet.  People have been working on hacking cyborgs
and working on machine learning for much longer than the DIYbio concept has
been established, and for all of these reasons I think you won¹t see as many
tangibles ³come out of it² as you will from your interest groups at present.
The first real contributions are likely to be a refinement of methods and
tools that make the field of Synthetic Biology more accessible to DIYbio
hackers, thus allowing more people to enter the field.

I think that the space issue may be more fundamental than you¹re currently
thinking.  This is just my two cents, but I don¹t think you¹ll see a lot of
bio folks rushing to join NB at $80/month if they¹re not getting access to
space and equipment conducive to their interests out of it.  There are some
folks in the SF DIYbio group that are not that interested in NB due to this,
and I think this currently prevents the SF DIYbio group from ³coming fully
under the Noisebridge umbrella² as you put it.  It is for this reason that I
suggested exploring space issues at this time as well as other operating
issues.  There¹s certainly more to discuss than just space, but we need to
figure out what the possibilities are.

The main advantage I see for DIYbio in working with NB is in your
organizational structure and culture.  I¹m not just saying this to flatter
you, I really mean it.  You have essentially created a fairly open space
where people can come in and use shared equipment and work on a projects in
a way that your space gets maintained, things don¹t get stolen, work
proceeds safely, and you¹ve dealt with legal concerns like insurance.  I
think that a bio hackerspace would definitely magnify the challenges
further, as you are introducing very real biological, chemical, and
environmental risks, and many of these risks are not obvious (unlike a saw
blade for example) and require knowledge to even recognize the risk yet
alone handle them properly.  Someone like me may have the technical
knowledge of how to do this, but that is a far cry from establishing a
relatively open space used by many who *actually* pay attention to these
issues.  I realize NB doesn¹t have the solution to all of these issues (I
noticed you¹re still working on soda purchases :) ), but I think you are
further than we are.

I think that at least a part of the cross-pollination that Tito was
referring to revolves around hardware.  Tito for example has been working on
a project to create a better, cheaper gel-box + power
supply/transilluminator combo which would make bio work more accessible.
This is essentially a hardware project and a lot of the folks at NB would
have a lot of expertise to contribute to a project like this if they were
interested in working on bio hardware.  This is probably one of the simpler
(though most important) examples, and future projects are likely to be even
more sophisticated.  I imagine this could be a reciprocal benefit though it
would really depend on what projects you were working on.

A question I have though is what if anything NB would be looking to get out
of this.  How much do you want bio work to take place at NB?  Are you mainly
offering your space as a favor, do you think this is something cool and
would like to be exposed to it, are you actively wanting to create a bio
hacker space at NB and are looking for collaborators to do it, or something
else?  Some understanding of this would be helpful.

-Josh

On 3/30/09 8:18 PM, "Christie Dudley" <longobord at gmail.com> wrote:

> It's good to hear from you.  Although I must confess this email baffles me. 
> I'm really confused as to what the cross-polination is that you're referring
> to.  I think a lot of folks would agree that a great deal of our frustration
> with this whole thing is the lack of dialog between the bio folks and the
> membership of Noisebridge.  Although space is a very serious issue right now,
> that isn't central to the problem, and your assumption that it is only seems
> to illustrate how far apart we are on this.
> 
> I'm sure you would have understood this if you'd kept up with the discussions
> going on in various places.  Yes, we're a wordy bunch (as evidinced by today's
> flurry of activity.)  If you're willing to work together in a coordinated
> fashion I genuinely believe we can work something out space- and safety-
> wise.  In addition to sharing space, we need to share the administrative
> overhead that comes with "getting along together" and work everything out in
> through the consensus process that's part of our founding principles.
> 
> I'm sure you can understand that the last thing we want is to see our
> resources: space, money and energy poured into a black hole that nothing comes
> out of.  To date, that's all we've experienced.  We have a number of "interest
> groups" such as cyborg/sensebridge, OpenEEG and Machine learning that all act
> as subgroups from the main group.  DIY bio is unique in that it seems to be
> operating indepenently but colocated in Noisebridge, with occasional
> announcements to this list that something's happening. 
> 
> I see a lot of potential here for shared information as well as shared
> resources, but I'm not sure folks with the DIY bio are willing to do what it
> would take - come fully under the Noisebridge umbrella - to make us work and
> live well together.  If you think that can happen, I think we really can get
> something good going.
> 
> Christie
> 
> On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 7:15 PM, Tito Jankowski <titojankowski at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Hi everyone,
>> 
>> I'm also thankful -- Noisebridge has been most excellent to the DIYbio group.
>> I've attended all of the DIYbio meetings held at NB and I feel that the
>> direction of DIYbio is influenced from our time there.
>> 
>> Sure, if we got serious we could sequester ourselves in some commercial space
>> elsewhere in the Bay. But that lack of cross pollination *exactly* what's
>> wrong with biotech -- and that's what DIYbio is fighting against. The
>> evolution and exchange that happens at Noisebridge is very much in the spirit
>> of DIYbio -- and I'm wondering how to preserve this. How can we democratize
>> biotech in a safe, productive way?
>> 
>> 1. One way to do this is by being physically close to other hackers. Josh
>> makes a good point -- what, loosely, would be involved in securing space next
>> to Noisebridge for DIYbio?
>> 
>> 2. Another option is to find out own place -- and get help with setting up
>> our leadership, management, and culture. Maybe start with that "how to start
>> a hackerspace" pdf I saw floating around.
>> 
>> I look forward to working with you all, and learning more about the blood and
>> sweat that you put down, and hopefully sharing trick or two about biotech
>> with you!
>> 
>> Tito
>> 
>> 
>> On Mar 30, 2009, at 3:29 PM, Josh Perfetto wrote:
>> 
>>>  Hello all at NB,
>>>  
>>>  I helped the DIYbio group with the experiment over the weekend, and would
>>> like to provide some information on the current situation & thoughts on
>>> future relations.
>>>  
>>>  The experiment which was begun over the weekend is essentially the ³hello
>>> world² of synthetic biology: transforming a plasmid containing the GFP gene
>>> into E. Coli, so that the bacteria will fluoresce under UV light.  It is
>>> very basic and many of the materials used in this experiment are from a kit
>>> that is routinely used in high school biology labs.  There are materials in
>>> this kit that you shouldn¹t ingest like a Calcium Chloride solution which
>>> you shouldn¹t ingest, but doesn¹t pose a particularly great safety risk, and
>>> I am sure there are many liquids and other objects at NB that you shouldn¹t
>>> ingest either.  There is also a laboratory strain of E. Coli in the kit (not
>>> the same as the pathogenic strains you often hear about causing food
>>> contamination).  This should actually be safe for people with normal immune
>>> systems to ingest, though there should be no reason for anyone to do this,
>>> and the closed culture tubes sitting in a dedicated fridge should pose no
>>> risk to anyone.
>>>  
>>>  I helped the group create this safety guidelines & protocol page
>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Noisebridge_Lab_Safety_and_Ethics_Page .  I
>>> believe these guidelines & protocols suffice for the current ³hello world²
>>> experiment, though not necessarily all work going forward.  If you look at
>>> the bottom, I pointed out that NB does not have proper hazardous materials
>>> processes or licenses in place, and therefore I believe that these materials
>>> should not be brought into NB at this time.  I also just updated your Safety
>>> wiki page to link to the lab safety page as well.
>>>  
>>>  I do have some thoughts and concerns with things moving forward which are
>>> really just coming from myself (not representing the entire SF DIYbio group
>>> here), but this seems like a good time to share them.
>>>  
>>>  First as others have pointed out there is clearly some communication
>>> problems between these two groups, and I think the idea of making Praveen an
>>> ambassador would be excellent.  I can¹t really play this role as I¹m not
>>> able to regularly attend your meetings and am not that familiar with NB.
>>>  
>>>  But secondly here¹s some thoughts on NB/DIYBio.  As I mentioned above, the
>>> experiment the group is currently doing is really basic, and NB has been
>>> very generous in letting this group use its space.  I think there¹s going to
>>> be a limit though in how much the group is going to be able to achieve in
>>> this current environment.  I¹ve only visited NB twice, and what I¹ve seen is
>>> an awesome bunch of shared hardware hacking equipment, shared table space,
>>> some storage space, and everything is totally jam packed :)  That¹s not that
>>> different than a bio lab, except that the shared equipment is rather
>>> different as well as the types of surfaces.  We¹ve seen the space issues
>>> just a single fridge has brought, but such a fridge is just one small part
>>> of common lab equipment.  I really like the environment and group governance
>>> systems that NB has setup, and I think DIYbio could benefit a lot from this,
>>> as well as the proximity to all of the other work going on at NB (there is a
>>> lot of hardware hacking needed as well for biology).  I just think that at a
>>> point, a larger amount of dedicated physical space is going to be required
>>> for equipment storage, safety equipment (fume hood/bio safety cabinet), safe
>>> storage of reagents, etc.  NB wouldn¹t be what it is if it didn¹t have room
>>> for all the equipment it currently has.
>>>  
>>>  I¹m throwing this out there now to get your take on this and see what the
>>> interest level is in potentially creating such a space if you were to expand
>>> (can¹t really see how it could be done without expanding given the current
>>> size of the space).  If there might be interest it would be good to figure
>>> out what it might take (i.e. there would have to be X new members to support
>>> the space financially).  If more involved work was to take place at NB, then
>>> it probably would also be necessary to figure out how to safely store
>>> chemicals that are much more dangerous than those being discussed at
>>> present, hazardous waste disposal processes & permits, necessary segregation
>>> of activities, etc.
>>>  
>>>  I think part of the problems being experienced is because SF DIYbio is
>>> currently in a bit of a neitherland in terms of its home and needs to
>>> eventually pick a location and settle down.  The group is currently looking
>>> at a number of options, of which NB is one, and if NB is to become the home,
>>> then eventually this relationship needs to become more formalized (with
>>> DIYbio members becoming NB members etc).  If another location becomes the
>>> physical home, I think there may still be many interesting opportunities for
>>> the two groups to collaborate on projects.  And regardless, NB has been very
>>> generous with its space while this all gets worked out, and I hope everyone
>>> recognizes this.
>>>  
>>>  -Josh 
>>>   _______________________________________________
>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>> 
>> 
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