[Noisebridge-discuss] [drama] Frantisek is going to stop living at Noisebridge starting tonight.

Frantisek Apfelbeck algoldor at yahoo.com
Wed Nov 17 23:20:20 UTC 2010






________________________________
From: Albert Sweigart <asweigart at gmail.com>
To: Frantisek Apfelbeck <algoldor at yahoo.com>
Sent: Wed, November 17, 2010 3:03:51 PM
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] [drama] Frantisek is going to stop 
living at Noisebridge starting tonight.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Frantisek Apfelbeck" <algoldor at yahoo.com>
Date: Nov 17, 2010 2:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] [drama] Frantisek is going to stop living at 
Noisebridge starting tonight.
To: "Albert Sweigart" <asweigart at gmail.com>

Just few notes.

My name is in the headline therefore:

- I've promised not to sleep at Noisebridge, confirmed, done.
- I did live at Noisebridge, I live at Noisebridge and I certainly hope to do so
in the future, I've defined that already before.
- the major thing what brought this issue up was the last week when I had to
prepare for potentially quick leave of the country and I was around several
nights in one go, otherwise I'm quite pretty positive this issue would not come
up because I went through that with several "well respected" members in the past
and they left it in the "gray area" knowing that there are many people who do
not really object and several who are happy that I'm around place from various
reasons no matter what (without any feelings it has advantages and disadvantages
as anything)
- there is a quiet but numerous camp of people who thinks that crashing at
Noisebridge is fine, time period is questionable within this group but they do
not want to "restrict" staying at Noisebridge over the night, it's clear from
any discussion in past few months on the subject
- at the end of the yesterday meeting it was decided like many times before that
it's not OK to sleep at Noisebridge you should not do it at any case and still
you can crash here ==> so nothing changed as expected, however again, I'm out of
this personally with or without place to stay because sleeping at Noisebridge
was never of major importance to me, it came handy sometimes but that is all,
not necessity
- concerning cleanliness, well since I'm around I'm keeping kitchen clean as
much as I can and in the last weeks or months the back area with occasional trip
in to the front. I have thanked numerous times to the people helping to keep the
place clean Al, Miloh, Mike, Andy and several others. Unfortunately if I stop
cleaning the back on regular bases it goes downhill way to fast and we should
try to find some long term solution how to sort that out
- if anyone wants to watch movie, do metal work or whatever during the night I
did not care. I was so tired most of the time, that I close my eyes and
especially thanks to Mitch's sleeping mask I was gone no matter what
- I did not really sacrificed by cleaning or "organizing Noisebridge" , I just
did what I do if I'm around some place for a while. I do what I believe that I
should be doing and I do it as well as I can, failing sometimes but I'm on the
road. I deeply dislike pretending something, it may be a block I do not know, I
just do not like to pretend. So what I did I did and if I'm gone tomorrow it's
not going to change anything because it was done in a free will and I've
actually enjoyed most of my endeavors at Noisebridge and their impact on the
place and people.
Based on another of Al's emails I also do wonder where the things went wrong and
what to do with that, that is my major concern. I really do not think that the
major problem is someone sleeping or not in the space, it's something else,
something more complex but I do not know what. What I've observed many times
before was how  the new members were shining , working on many cool projects,
making fund rising efforts happen etc. and in two three months they would be
gone. They did not moved geographically away, they did not get married, they did
not get a new job they just stopped being around and personally I like many of
these people, they are cool but they are not really around any more or just very
occasionally. Maybe trying to talk to them would be first step to find out what
is the really problem because I honestly do not think that my stay in the place
had really significant impact on our current negative situation, that is my
opinion. By the way I owe my dues for the last month, I hope to pay it asap.



Well now I know for the first time how it feels to be a major "hot spot" of
Noisebridge "DRAMA" and one thing what I can say is that it's fucking waste of
time ... Otherwise do not worry, I can take a plenty of heat. I just now
remember waking up in the middle of the night in Nicaragua, with six guys with
machetes around me asking rather harshly if I can switch off my head torch. So
it is just that my sense of DRAMA has a bit different dimension.

See you around,

Frantisek






----- Original Message ----
From: Albert Sweigart <asweigart at gmail.com>
To: noisebridge-discuss <noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>
Sent: Wed, November 17, 2010 1:35:06 PM
Subject: [Noisebridge-discuss] [drama] Frantisek is going to stop living at
Noisebridge starting tonight.

> I did.  I was being facetious.  But isn't that what is being said?  Isn't that
>what he is being called?

No. In fact, everyone is going out of their way to point out that
Frantisek is helpful and friendly. No one is calling him a "fucking
bum" (even in jest), and bringing that up can escalate arguments on
the list since it can easily be construed that you are accusing people
who have a problem with people living at Noisebridge of hurtful
name-calling.

I wrote my original email very carefully, because I know how easy it
can be to misinterpret text. I want to keep the discussion calm and
constructive, so I'd like to ask everyone read this email carefully. I
will try to answer each of Corey's questions.

> My point being, obviously this guy is working very hard and is an active
> member of the community, paying or not.  He's running projects, keeping them
> clean, keeping the place clean, he's not disturbing anyone

Frantisek has been living at Noisebridge for months. The space has not
always been clean. Frantisek *does* help out with the cleaning, but I
think it gives the wrong idea that Noisebridge is well-organized and
tidy because of his sole efforts. Lots of different people help out
with the cleaning.

> It's the beef that he is setting a bad example? Is the fear that NB is
> suddenly going to be inundated with people that follow in his foot steps:
> being overly nice, doing good work, hacking on cool shit, and then crashing
> on a couch?

I know this is a sardonic question, but: No, the beef has always been
with people living (not just occasionally sleeping) at Noisebridge
fully knowing the community disapproves of it, and keeping it secret
from the general community because they know they would be forced to
stop. Again, it is not that he's been "crashing on a couch" but that
he has been using the tea room as a bedroom to live at Noisebridge.

> It just seems to me Frantisek is a scape goat and that the anger over
> Llama

This is a red herring. That Llama guy was outright disruptive and
quickly told to leave Noisebridge and from my view its been forgotten.
The community being against purposefully spending the night and living
at Noisebridge existed before the whole Llama thing. Llama wasn't even
mentioned at last night's meeting or on this email thread until you
just now brought it up.

> Is it habitual?  How does that matter?
>
> How do you run a 24 hour hacker space, then put limits on how long a person
> stays there?

Michael Kahn and others come to Noisebridge every day for hours at a
time. There is no problem with the amount of time they spend at
Noisebridge. There isn't a problem if you are up all night working on
projects until 7 in the morning. The problem is using Noisebridge as a
your personal home.

We do it by coming together as a community and having a discussion
about to see how everyone feels, and then trying to sort out what is
acceptable behavior. That is how we put the "no living" limit in.

> Is it theft for him to not pay rent, here?  Is it theft that people running
> a legitimate business and making profits off of work done here aren't also
> paying rent?

No, it is not theft for him to not pay rent. However it does change
the dynamics of the space, because it can make it seem like instead of
a public workspace, it can make people feel they are being invasive in
a person's private home. Even though someone is perfectly justified in
working and making noise at night, basic politeness would make them
hesitate to do so when someone is sleeping in what is their home. This
imposition isn't fair, especially since living at Noisebridge has
never been a publicly advertised option available to everyone. Instead
it was only available to someone who ignores the community's norms and
does it in secret.

> Is it a problem, legally? I think that is the only valid concern.

Eh. Possibly. It was discussed at the meeting and in the thread. I
think most people can agree this may be a significant reason, but it's
not anywhere near the most significant.

> See, normally I avoid drama as much as possible.  I mean, I try not to step
> in it...I'm always watching my feet to make sure I don't end up with sticky,
> stinky, festering drama on my shoes...
>
> ...but now I am jumping in head first.

Please don't purposefully escalate drama at Noisebridge, even
jokingly. It puts other people on the defensive and then they start to
escalate. Let's play it cool.

> What is going on here is, a really nice guy is being publicly (and pubicly)
> cock punched, repeatedly, over his reliance on a community he contributes
> to...

No, Frantisek is not being repeatedly cock punched. His character is
being repeatedly upheld through all of this. He's a nice guy and makes
contributions, and nobody wants any sort of punishment or barring or
anything over this. He just can't live at Noisebridge, following the
same standard that everyone else adheres to.

> When you sacrifice so much for a community, it is not only natural, but
> necessary to use that community to fulfil some of the needs displaced by the
> sacrifice.

That isn't a sacrifice if you expect something in return, it's a
purchase. And generally this sort of "purchase" shouldn't be done in
secret so you can escape disapproval by the community. Many people
clean up and help out at Noisebridge. But they don't get a privilege
to misuse the space because of it.

> Maybe that sacrifice is misplaced and undesired.  I am sure we've all done
> that...should we all be publicly bashed over it?

I brought it up in front of the community because my personal efforts
to resolve it privately weren't working and wouldn't change anything.
I didn't go by rumors, I personally confirmed that Frantisek was
repeatedly sleeping at the space and kept his personal artifacts here,
and also talked to him about it to get his side of the story before
emailing the list.

I emailed the list, carefully explained that I did not want Frantisek
kicked out or condemned. Now he's been offered an apartment for a
month by another member, Noisebridge doesn't have someone living in
the space, and the problem was solved in a single day.

>>   i find that not taking things seriously generally is
>> freeing, often with a clarifying effect.
>
> When the thread is "[name of person] is [offending action]" it is hardly
> general.

The issue of people sleeping at Noisebridge has been brought up
before. This was a specific problem dealing with a specific person,
and I wanted to narrow the focus on that so we could have it resolved.
I specifically put names out there because as much as I made clear
that this is not a condemnation, I did not want tiptoe on the issue.

-Al
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