[Noisebridge-discuss] take it easy, it is just an another situation to learn from

Frantisek Apfelbeck algoldor at yahoo.com
Thu Apr 21 21:00:57 UTC 2011


Greetings to all!
I think that Rubin's email is kind of saying what I mean, some of his 
suggestions are very "fresh ones" but that is the reason why I like them. He 
uses open approach, with hammer in his hand sometimes but open ...


I send close emails to people if I think that it is better to discuss things 
with them first off the list, it is a usual practice done by many Noisebridge 
members who I value. I do not have a problem if someone posts my emails, I hope 
I'm clear here. To be absolutely honest I meant to send it to discuss too but 
I've failed, not for the first time.

I do express my opinion if I do not agree with something. I'm trying not to let 
things happen if I believe it is not a good idea. Your post saying basically 
"I'm closing the donation box if you want a key you can talk to me" without 
discussing this option on Noisebridge or Tastebridge mailing list is not as good 
as it could be. It is not just me who is not at SF just right now, Fabian, 
Benni, Josh and others are now also away and I think that they should have a 
chance to say what they think about it too.

Concerning where the money stays. I've found that to have larger quantities of 
money out of sight works fine because as I've said before "no temptation". Think 
of Noisebridge in a larger scale, most of the time no keys to donation bins and 
no large amounts of money in them, money sits somewhere safe. It seems to me 
fine and it works. If there are for the last few months locks on the jars I hope 
it is just temporary and I doubt there are on all donation bins in the space. 


If my comments are not welcomed I'm sorry but I do believe this is an important 
matter and I really hope that another than "lock them out" option is going to be 
used. I should maybe not use the phrasing that I do not want to interfere, my 
fault, sorry. I do want to interfere. 


I think that you take this personally. I can ensure you that if Mitch posted 
that he wants to lock the Tastebridge donation bin I would ask him to try 
another solution.

If I did not make you realise what I'm talking about I'm sorry. I've tried but 
your points of view on this matter may be too different, we should wait and see 
what the community thinks of it. If they are fine with closed box I'll be not 
particularly happy but I think that I can live with it.

Peace and love,

Frantisek

PS If you think that the tricks which I've used to secure the budget for 
Tastebridge would not work now because of what ever reasons (time, amount of 
people involved etc.) try something else. All what I ask is to leave the box 
closure as the last possible solution.  




________________________________
From: Rikke Rasmussen <rikke.c.rasmussen at gmail.com>
To: algoldor at frantisekapfelbeck.org; noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
Sent: Thu, April 21, 2011 8:55:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] take it easy, it is just an another situation 
to learn from


Hi Frantisek,

Please explain something to me: In your opinion, what is the difference between 
having somebody take the money home (a treasurer) and having a box in the space 
that anyone may have a key to? It's also a little hard to take your talk of 
openness seriously when it's only happening in closed emails. 

You're not just interfering, you're trying to run the show, and it's not 
unwelcome. Please stop.


/Rikke

P.S.: Thanks for the offer, but we've already got a hook-up through Om Shan Tea 
House, so I think we'll be alright.



On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 9:32 AM, <algoldor at frantisekapfelbeck.org> wrote:

Look Rikke,
>Most support which we got from people to start the project and to keep it 
>running was given by people who are directly against charging fees for classes 
>because of the openness of Noisebridge and strongly arguing against any locked 
>boxes which have appeared quite recently and were unwelcome by many. It is just 
>as it is, good or bad doesn't matter, I take it as a fact.
>
>It is hard for me to know how Tastebridge is doing because there are close to no 
>posts on the Tastebrige webpages or on the discuss lists. I've lowered the 
>amount of my posts partly because I wanted to create more space for others to go 
>ahead. And yes also because it takes a hell of time to keep thing like this 
>alive and vibrant and I've my limitations.
>
>I do understand that people have different amounts of time, again that is fact. 
>I've just been trying to remind ways which we have used before to get money and 
>which worked. We have been loosing money on donations before as Noisebridge did. 
>It is not a new thing. I just strongly feel that the gain from having it open 
>over weight the amount of money loosed if managed well.
>
>Concerning the openness of access that is questionable. After doing this for a 
>while I've still always open box on my events and during my activities. I think 
>it is not just cool, it works at least for me and I hoped it could be 
>sustainable for Tastebridge too. I just do not think that this system is 
>necessary.
>
>I've expressed my opinion, that is all what I can do now so I do not interfere 
>too much.
>
>If you take the road of locked system, so be it but I would love to see another 
>solution how to keep the budget in plus numbers and donation box open. If you 
>feel that the time constrain is too big, I would understand of course. However 
>taking money on regular basis has the advantage of not tempting too much. I 
>think that to see $5 and $50 lying on a table is for many people different grade 
>of temptation.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Frantisek
>
>PS Please do not feel harmed that is certainly not an intention of my comments. 
>However I've a strong view on some things and that is one of the reason why I'm 
>able to get support to do things from some people and quite gaining quite 
>nothing from others.
>
>PS II. It may be that I'll apply in the future the closed box system too, but I 
>hope I'll not have to. I would have to be strongly forced to do so. It may be 
>hard to explain  but this is one of the things which is important for me and for 
>the projects which I run.
>
>PS III. I may ask Three Stone Hearths if they would be OK to make some order for 
>us for whole sale prices. They would not be probably very happy about it mostly 
>because it would complicate their accounting system.
>
>
>Quoting Rikke Rasmussen <rikke.c.rasmussen at gmail.com>:
>
>
>Frantisek,
>>
>>It's not a matter of people not donating - on the contrary, we've been doing
>>fine just with the weekly kombucha and a little food here and there - it's a
>>matter of us having very deliberately *not* having locked away or removed
>>any funds, exactly because no one wants to have to make any decisions that
>>detract from the openness of our community, and someone then having taken
>>advantage of that openness.
>>
>>Don't see the principal difference between a treasurer removing the money
>>and a locked box in the fridge that anyone can get keys and access to? It
>>wouldn't be the only donation box in the space with a lock on it, either.
>>
>>Stocks have been managed better than you might expect - we're still running
>>on the last of what you bought just before you left. I thank you for the
>>advice, but while I appreciate that Tastebridge was your full-time
>>occupation, none of us currently have that option, and I can't help but feel
>>a little hurt by the implication that it can't function any other way. I
>>think we've been doing really well, all things considered.
>>
>>
>>/Rikke
>>
>>
>>
>>On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 8:33 AM, Frantisek Apfelbeck 
> <algoldor at yahoo.com>wrote:
>>
>>
>>Hi Rikke,
>>>I understand your frustration but I really strongly feel that locked
>>>donation box solution is not a good solution, the project would be harmed
>>>considerably. There is a very strong part of Noisebridge which is against
>>>locking anything within the community. In this case I think that distance
>>>doesn't matter, another solution should be applied.
>>>
>>>I do not know strategies what are the current Tastebridge strategies to
>>>accumulate resources and I've not seen any numbers being published recently
>>>of how do we do but based on previous experience:
>>>- the Tuesday member dinner worked fine and donations were collected and
>>>counted directly so no problem there, just leave few dollars in the box
>>>($1-10)
>>>- the underground markets are hard to prepare for but it is an amazing way
>>>how to get resources too and again fully controlled with no strings attached
>>>- other option which helped before is send an email to the community to ask
>>>for resources for the brewing program to continue (I can do that)
>>>- of course taking out money on regular bases should work fine if some one
>>>is around to do so. I bet someone trusty even not affiliated to Tastebridge
>>>would do it. Again leaving $1-10 in the donation box and having the donation
>>>box on as much stable position worked fine for months.
>>>
>>>I'm sending this to you in person so you can think about that. If you go
>>>this way you will loose more than you gain and I'll have to comment on this
>>>because this was, is and will be one of the fundamental principles behind
>>>Tastebridge - open as much as possible. People who supported Tastebridge in
>>>the past are mostly strongly against the locking solutions. I know that very
>>>well and yes I'm one of them too and there are very strong reasons for that.
>>>
>>>So please try to take care about that in a different manner I do not have a
>>>problem to write to some folks to try to get some resources. Once the
>>>ingredients are bought they last quite a while if managed well. I think the
>>>major problem is the money management, someone has to be "treasurer" for
>>>Tastebridge and really take care about it. I'm using Tastebridge as a
>>>concept where ever I go and it works but it is not easy sometimes but I
>>>deeply feel it is worth it.
>>>
>>>If it happens that Tastebridge in Noisebridge will become inactive that is
>>>life. I'll and many others will be sorry but I'll continue to promote the
>>>idea somewhere else and I'll revive it once in San Francisco again it will
>>>take just a little bit longer than if it was kept running.
>>>
>>>Best of luck and enjoy the "painful thorns" of the beauty of the open
>>>movement :-))
>>>
>>>Sincerely,
>>>
>>>Frantisek
>>>
>>>PS I'm going to post very short note asking you to reconsider, if you want
>>>post this email that is absolutely fine do so preferably to both lists.
>>>------------------------------
>>>*From:* Rikke Rasmussen <rikke.c.rasmussen at gmail.com>
>>>*To:* Tastebridge <tastebridge at lists.noisebridge.net>;
>>>noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net; biobridge at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>*Sent:* Thu, April 21, 2011 9:01:46 AM
>>>*Subject:* [Noisebridge-discuss] The Mystery of the Disappearing Donations
>>>
>>>Hey people,
>>>
>>>Amanda and I have bottled yet another batch of kombucha for y'all to enjoy
>>>- they're currently sitting on the Tastebridge shelf, awaiting refrigeration
>>>tomorrow.
>>>
>>>Am much dismayed to note, however, that the Tastebridge donation jar (the
>>>small screw top one we keep our funds in) currently contains only $9.00 (6
>>>of which were put in tonight, and down from ~$35.00 on Monday night) -
>>>nowhere near enough to replenish our almost depleted stock of tea and sugar
>>>(base ingredients). This basically means that we've got barely enough for
>>>another batch, and won't be able to make any more unless money magically
>>>reappears. I'll immediately take the (painful!) step of putting a locked box
>>>in the fridge for kombucha donations - anyone who feels they should have a
>>>key can ask me for one.
>>>
>>>Sorry folks, but this really sucks. Please help me make sure this doesn't
>>>happen again.
>>>
>>>/Rikke
>>>
>>>
>
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