[Noisebridge-discuss] Handy signs are handy.
Shannon Lee
shannon at scatter.com
Fri Jul 29 19:40:30 UTC 2011
One way to thread this needle is to focus on signs as labels instead of
signs as instructions or statements of policy. For example, a sign with a
diagram of where the dishes go and a copy of Danny's "how to do dishes
programatically" flowchart might go over better than a big "DO NOT LEAVE
DISHES IN THE SINK" and be more effective. Lowering barriers to doing the
right thing is at least as effective a strategy as playing on free-form
guilt.
--S
On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 12:25 PM, Danny O'Brien <danny at spesh.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 11:26 AM, Al Sweigart <asweigart at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I know that signs getting defaced or torn down is a data point, it's
> > just not a very helpful one. I have no clue who did it or why, so
> > there's no way I can talk to them and work out a change or compromise.
> > And if somebody is just defacing a sign instead of bringing it up with
> > people, they most likely don't _care_ to talk about it or compromise.
> > That's unexcellent behavior that we should change.
>
> Well, the challenge there is that people perceive signs themselves in
> exactly the same way -- as sometimes passive-aggressive attempts to
> fix a problem without communicating or working out a change. They're
> seen (note: seen as, not *are*) acts by people who don't care to talk
> or compromise, but who want to order people around in abstentia. The
> communication fails both ways. I'm not saying that's a deliberate
> thing by the person putting up the sign, but it's definitely an
> impression that one has to mitigate against. The ideal is not to
> presume anything about the internal motivations of the people involved
> and work to fix the actual outward (ha!) signs.
>
> I say this as someone who actually likes signs, but has spoken to
> people who are old key members of the space, clearly love talking and
> compromise and discussion, but also clearly didn't like some of the
> signs. Not particularly aggressively, but enough that that was a data
> point on its own.
>
> Note that also the kitchen signs all went down because somebody is
> working on integrating them and improving them. I wish I knew who that
> was, but she had some really good ideas. Not every sign taken down is
> because someone is fuming at them; sometimes they're just messy and
> need to be improved.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > So to encourage people not taking the defacing route, I'm offering to
> > donate a dollar to Noisebridge each day the printed signs go without
> > being defaced or torn down.
> >
> > -Al
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:55 AM, jim <jim at systemateka.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Note Rachel's point that any tagging is a likely data
> >> point. I believe most tagging indicates something, however
> >> obscure.
> >> I'd like to reiterate the idea of clearing an area
> >> around a posted sign and add the notion of having fewer
> >> signs and/or have signs deal with fewer topics.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, 2011-07-29 at 10:48 -0700, Christina Olson wrote:
> >>> Hey kids,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> In my discussion with Liz and Danny about signs I did in fact touch
> >>> upon the points that 1. signs get removed or moved ALL THE DAMN TIME
> >>> and 2. no one respects any signage due to the fact that they're not
> >>> clear, not consistent, and just printed paper taped to somewhere.
> >>> We're working on a branded, systemic set of signs that will be
> >>> laminated and nailed/screwed to walls and other things so they cannot
> >>> be easily moved or disregarded. If you'd like to be part of the sign
> >>> development effort please join the soceng mailing list, and speak to
> >>> Liz or myself.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The soceng meeting will be a day next week that is NOT tuesday, since
> >>> I can't ever make Tuesday anything due to a preexisting regular
> >>> commitment. It will probably be Wednesday or Thursday, I haven't
> >>> decided yet.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> PS: Buying a laminator is hella crazy expensive, like several hundred
> >>> dollars for a shitty personal one and thousands for a good one (I've
> >>> already looked into this multiple times for other reasons, same thing
> >>> with paper cutters and binding machines), so unless someone is
> >>> donating one to the space, we are going to get them printed and
> >>> laminated elsewhere.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:41 AM, jim <jim at systemateka.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Thanks lots, Al, for your work.
> >>> Your offer of $1 a day seems to me to need some
> >>> fine-tuning,
> >>> mainly to specify particular signs, not just "the printed
> >>> signs".
> >>> As to tagging, seemingly snarky (gratuitous) additions may
> >>> reflect some reasonable criticism, sometimes a matter of the
> >>> background attitude that the wording and graphic effect of the
> >>> sign presents.
> >>> Maybe give some further thought to the design and wording
> >>> of
> >>> printed signs, including some aspect of printing that presents
> >>> the sign as a finished graphic--while that presents a risk of
> >>> doing extra work that gets trashed (i.e. tagged), a more
> >>> polished
> >>> finish may deter the more genuinely snarky changes.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, 2011-07-29 at 10:30 -0700, Al Sweigart wrote:
> >>> > The tagging I've seen haven't really been helpful commentary
> >>> so much
> >>> > as just passive aggressive snarky comments or the sign just
> >>> gets torn
> >>> > down. Either way, it doesn't really facilitate communication
> >>> and
> >>> > discourages people from putting up signs in the first place.
> >>> It's not
> >>> > like the wiki, where you can have a separate talk page and
> >>> undoing
> >>> > edits are trivial.
> >>> >
> >>> > Anyway, my offer still stands. I'll donate a dollar a day to
> >>> > Noisebridge each day the printed signs go without being
> >>> defaced or
> >>> > torn down. I'll occasionally replace signs and start paying
> >>> again if
> >>> > they get tagged up.
> >>> >
> >>> > I'm up for meeting with Liz and Daravinne for brainstorming.
> >>> There's a
> >>> > wiki page up too: nburl.net/signage
> >>> >
> >>> > -Al
> >>> >
> >>> > On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Danny O'Brien
> >>> <danny at spesh.com> wrote:
> >>> > > On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:06 AM, rachel lyra hospodar
> >>> > > <rachelyra at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> > >> I think if a sign gets removed or defaced it's often an
> >>> excellent piece of
> >>> > >> feedback from the community about the quality,
> >>> intentions, or placement of
> >>> > >> the sign. Signs I've made have been removed. I try to be
> >>> pragmatic about it
> >>> > >> and take the fact of their removal to be something I can
> >>> improve against.
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> I think we need better signage for a lot of reasons...
> >>> including exit
> >>> > >> signs. Anyone want to start a signage working group with
> >>> me?
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >
> >>> > > I think the best place for this would be on the social
> >>> engineering list.
> >>> > >
> >>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/socialengineering
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Me, Liz and Daravinne can't make it to this week's tuesday
> >>> meeting (or
> >>> > > the social engineering meeting before it, so maybe meet up
> >>> before then
> >>> > > to brainstorm on it?)
> >>> > >
> >>> > > d.
> >>> > >
> >>> > >> mediumreality.com
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> On Jul 29, 2011 10:02 AM, "Danny O'Brien"
> >>> <danny at spesh.com> wrote:
> >>> > >>> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 9:04 AM, Al Sweigart
> >>> <asweigart at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> > >>>> One of the efforts I want to do to make the space less
> >>> intimidating to
> >>> > >>>> new people is to improve the signage around the space
> >>> to make it more
> >>> > >>>> obvious what things are at NB, where those things are,
> >>> and provide
> >>> > >>>> answers for "what is this thing?" (protip: If the thing
> >>> is glowing
> >>> > >>>> and/or slimy, don't touch it.)
> >>> > >>>>
> >>> > >>>> A lot of the signs have been getting tagged up recently
> >>> (if you have a
> >>> > >>>> problem or suggestion with the wording, feel free to
> >>> email me
> >>> > >>>> privately or email the list), so to encourage
> >>> preserving the signs,
> >>> > >>>> I'm going to donate $1 each day the signs go without
> >>> being defaced or
> >>> > >>>> torn down. (If anyone can help with a part of that
> >>> dollar, it'd be
> >>> > >>>> great. $365 a year adds up.)
> >>> > >>>>
> >>> > >>>
> >>> > >>> Hey Al, I think Daravinne and Liz are already working on
> >>> improving the
> >>> > >>> signing (as is somebody I don't know from taste bridge),
> >>> you might
> >>> > >>> want to work with them on this. There's some talk about
> >>> getting a
> >>> > >>> laminator as well.
> >>> > >>>
> >>> > >>> I think the "tagging" comes from a general encouragement
> >>> in the last
> >>> > >>> batch of signs to note changes or improvements, and I
> >>> personally think
> >>> > >>> it's a good way to get direct commentary; though in
> >>> general I also
> >>> > >>> think putting an email and contact on the signs is also
> >>> good. Liz's
> >>> > >>> kitchen signs got taken down specifically because
> >>> someone is working
> >>> > >>> on better versions of them, based on the written
> >>> improvements. Our
> >>> > >>> signs are generally just not very good or clear (or just
> >>> > >>> overpowering), and I think requires more thought than
> >>> simply
> >>> > >>> attempting not to deface or remove ones that aren't
> >>> working.
> >>> > >>>
> >>> > >>> d.
> >>> > >>>
> >>> > >>>
> >>> > >>>
> >>> > >>>> -Al
> >>> > >>>>
> >>> > >>>> p.s. I put fresh black and color cartridges in the
> >>> white HP inkjet
> >>> > >>>> printer, but print in color sparingly cause it's
> >>> expensive (i.e.
> >>> > >>>> overpriced by monopolistic bastards).
> >>> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>> > >>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >>> > >>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >>> > >>>>
> >>>
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >>> > >>>>
> >>> > >>>>
> >>> > >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> > >>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >>> > >>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >>> > >>>
> >>>
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >
> >>> > _______________________________________________
> >>> > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >>> > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >>> >
> >>>
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>
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> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >
> >
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--
Shannon Lee
(503) 539-3700
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
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