[Noisebridge-discuss] City of Berkeley explanation of why not using open source.. Open Source vs. "proprietary" software

Wed May 25 23:10:22 UTC 2011

FWIW

you might try such an OS as SUSE Enterprise. They call some of their
enhancements Service Packs (MS Lingo).

maybe more trust, contact them and ask if they can list any city governments
as references ...

of course another option is Oracle Enterprise Linux (formerly Redhat).

support is optional with these but should be cheaper than MS and better
quality.

with Open Source the whole idea is to save money by cooperating across the
entire span of users, although Oracle sells training there are user groups
of course as well at various levels, many of whom are contributors to the
actual software.

It seems to me that people migrating from MS products need support for that
process as a smooth transition. One way is to make structures like these
that are similar to MS support. Just container for a better product.

On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 12:23 PM, Ryan Rawson <ryanobjc at gmail.com> wrote:

> Just because they are building on top of MSSQL, doesn't mean the
> resulting software can't be open source.  Then at least other cities
> could benefit from their work, no?
>
> Fighting the vendor game is not really recommended unless you are
> black-belt alas.
>
> -ryan
>
> On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 4:31 PM, Asa Dodsworth <asa.dodsworth at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > PostgreSQL sounds good, will that integrate well with their existing
> > software.
> >
> > I never made a suggestion to technical staff, what I forwarded years was
> > previous correspondence between IT staff and other commissioners.
> > I have found the city management staff I've had and opportunity to speak
> > with to be nontechnical people defaming opensource software. And I have
> > found their understanding of opensource, and critiques of it to be
> generally
> > uninformed,
> >
> > What I'm trying to do is ask technical people to weigh in on the
> technical
> > questions so I can present a reasonable fact checked option.
> >
> > thank you for your feedback,
> > Asa
> >
> >
> >
> > On 24 May 2011 07:41, Jason Dusek <jason.dusek at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>   Their assessment is a reasonable. Their staff have a lot of
> >>   MS training and experience; there will be considerable
> >>   expense and confusion for them should they move to MySQL.
> >>
> >>   Also, it is likely that Postgresql is actually a better fit for their
> >>   needs so why not recommend that? MySQL has been lagging
> >>   on core relational database features for quite some time.
> >>
> >>   Forcing technical decisions on technical people for political
> >>   reasons is unfortunately all too common and leads to
> >>   inefficiency, stagnation and poor morale. You've made your
> >>   suggestion and they have rejected it; persisting would only
> >>   recreate the kind of hierarchical vibe that is both contrary
> >>   to open source and probably led to the choice of MSFT in
> >>   the first place. Help them be free to choose open source.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Jason Dusek
> >>
> >> On May 23, 2011 8:02 PM, "Asa Dodsworth" <asa.dodsworth at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> > The City Of Berkeley IT staff say that Open Source Database software
> >> > wold
> >> > not be desirable, would ya'll like to assess their assessment..
> >> > I ask as I'm a rent board commissioner who has been trying to
> understand
> >> > how
> >> > opensource software can be used to address our software needs.
> >> >
> >> > asa
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Hi, Jay. Here is a brief explanation of how Open Source would play
> into
> >> > your project and why it wasn't considered.
> >> >
> >> > *Open Source would make the task of automating the Rent Board much
> more
> >> > simple.
> >> > *The biggest challenge the Rent Board faces is converting a manual
> >> > system
> >> > that had loosely defined business rules that were not consistently
> >> > applied
> >> > into a software system that rigorously enforces business rules. We
> have
> >> > agreed that there is no off-the-shelf solution that can meet the Rent
> >> > Board's needs. As we've seen over the past year, the process of
> >> > formalizing
> >> > business rules is a cultural problem rather than a technological one.
> >> > Once
> >> > we have accurately and thoroughly defined the business rules, the
> >> > software
> >> > development process is essentially the same whether we choose Open
> >> > Source or
> >> > proprietary tools.
> >> > *
> >> > Open Source would require less of an investment for the Rent Board.
> >> > *Since we have determined that there is no readily available
> >> > off-the-shelf
> >> > solution to adequately fulfill the Rent Board's needs, the only
> software
> >> > required is server, web server and database software. Since the City
> has
> >> > an
> >> > existing Enterprise agreement with Microsoft and is using
> >> > virtualization,
> >> > there is no cost to the Rent Board for server and web server software.
> >> > The
> >> > City could choose to use MySQL for a database platform, but since
> Oracle
> >> > acquired Sun Microsystems, MySQL Enterprise edition (required for an
> >> > enterprise application like RTS) would be roughly the same cost as SQL
> >> > Server. Since our network engineers, database administrator and
> >> > programmers
> >> > are all familiar with SQL Server and do not have MySQL experience,
> there
> >> > would be an additional ongoing cost to train staff and keep them
> >> > educated on
> >> > two disparate database platforms.
> >> >
> >> > *Open Source prevents prevents price gouging and other predatory
> >> > practices
> >> > by companies like Microsoft and Oracle.*
> >> > In theory, this is correct. The source code for Open Source software
> >> > like
> >> > MySQL is published intermittently so that any developer can support
> the
> >> > software should the vendor's business practices take an unattractive
> >> > turn.
> >> > However, a customized version of MySQL, for instance, carries other
> >> > risks.
> >> > First, database design and coding is extremely specialized and not
> >> > something
> >> > most programmers are familiar with. It's possible that the 3rd party
> >> > that
> >> > supports the product is not qualified to modify the code. Secondly,
> >> > maintaining a customized version of the software is expensive and not
> >> > most
> >> > vendor's core business. It's unlikely a vendor would modify something
> >> > like
> >> > a database engine or operating system unless they had very specialized
> >> > needs
> >> > and experience to address those needs. Once a vendor has modified the
> >> > base
> >> > code, it could become proprietary unless they turn around an publish
> it,
> >> > thereby counteracting the benefit of going with Open Source in the
> first
> >> > place. In terms of City staff modifying Open Source software, the cost
> >> > would be very high, we would need specialized, dedicated staff to
> >> > maintain
> >> > and support the software, and the risk of the software becoming
> unstable
> >> > would be very high. City programmers are competent at creating small,
> >> > specialized applications for those needs that can't be filled by
> >> > commercial
> >> > software -- customizing databases and operating systems exceeds their
> >> > skill
> >> > set.
> >> >
> >> > *Open Source is like alternative energy -- it's the right thing to do
> >> > and we
> >> > should support it or else it will never get a solid foothold.
> >> > *First acknowledging the points made above, this is a valid point.
> Open
> >> > Source may be a viable option for the City in the future but it is not
> >> > currently viable. Municipal governments typically let private
> enterprise
> >> > work out the kinks before taking risks on new technology. In the past
> 5
> >> > years, we have slowly but steadily begun using cloud services for some
> >> > applications -- when it made sense and we could justify the risk. If
> we
> >> > are
> >> > to use Open Source in the future, we will approach it in the same,
> >> > deliberate way and with adequate research and preparation.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Keith Skinner
> >> > Renegade Image <http://renegadeimage.wordpress.com/>
> >> > Facebook <
> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Renegade-Image/150788618296324>
> >> > Berkeley Afoot <http://urbnwokker.wordpress.com>
> >
> >
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> >
> >
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