[Noisebridge-discuss] Are people okay with people sleeping at the Noisebridge space?

Thu Oct 13 06:27:34 UTC 2011

Hey Duncan,

I don't think that this kind of response is going to help the situation 
any and I wish you would not yell at Al and get into this kind of 
rhetoric. It doesn't help the mailing list , the space, or people's 
perceptions of you.

Noisebridge is awesome, we agree there. Lots of people other than Al 
object to people using Noisebridge as a crash pad.  It is not sleeping 
that is a problem, I think, it's using the space as a living situation.

As I said before clearly a bunch of people who come to NB are in need of 
somewhere to live either as their home or for a little while as they 
pass through San Francisco.

Why not talk with Al and others in a peaceful way and talk frankly about 
that situation ?  In my earlier email I tried to outline some of the 
issues that make it hard to secure a place to live or sleep.  I was 
hoping you might start a Hacker Hostel task force, and that maybe people 
who (maybe like Al) might have resources to help could be useful. I am 
not going to personally become the housing-finding caseworker of 
Noisebridge, but would probably donate towards an effort to set up group 
housing if there is a group who need this and who can establish the 
social trust to do it.   Why not work to get something like that 
together with others who need it, then bring it to the larger membership 
and ask for funding?  Get a bunch of people living in a nearby apartment 
and set up a room of bunk beds for out of town visitors, like a cheap 
down n dirty hacker bed and breakfast, or something?  Wasn't Alex 
talking about doing that a while back?

People living at the space make some people really uncomfortable. 
Draconian efforts to apply a No Sleeping rule make others uncomfortable 
in a different direction so you have to negotiate and compromise. I 
think if you are in a position where you need to do that in order to 
make social ties, and you also need a place to live and sleep, yelling 
at people is a bad strategy, though it's understandable that you would 
do it when a bit freaked out, or if you really want to define yourself 
as the good person in this role pointing at the bad people to deflect 
negative attention. My hope is that people can stop living out of the 
space but arent forced to live on the street either YET somehow 
magically NB members don't spend all their time helping everyone 
homeless who walks through the door.   If you can find people to trust, 
try to self organize!

- liz

On 10/12/11 9:59 PM, Just Duncan wrote:
> Having not been at the space for some time and definitely not being part of
> the community of people who regularly hack here, you are COMPLETELY out of
> touch with Noisebridge.  THERE IS NO PROBLEM TO RESOLVED.
>
> Noisebridge is dynamic and this thread is either PURE trolling or else, with
> all due respect, you REALLY need to let this go.  Your obsession with this
> now hypothetical "problem" is not useful, implicitly slanders Noisebridge to
> those whose impression of NB is through this email list, and is wasting
> THOUSANDS of hours of people's valuable time the same insidious way that the
> "National Enquirer" does.  Unfortunately, people aren't generally at the
> check-out line when reading this, but more likely at their computers trying
> to work.  The volume of responses on this topic says NOTHING, except that
> people are very passionate about Noisebridge, rules, and respond to
> fear-mongering when hypotheticals are positioned as reality.
>
> Rubin asked you two, simple yes or no questions.  It sounds like your answer
> to them both is NO.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 8:57 PM, Al Sweigart<asweigart at gmail.com>  wrote:
>
>> Rubin, I want minimize drama, which is exactly why I'd like people to
>> talk about this and try to resolve it instead of it being a perennial
>> conflict like it's been. Right now it's not about a specific person,
>> which is a perfect time to talk about it. This way it doesn't
>> degenerate into "I like/dislike person X, which is why sleeping at the
>> space is fine/a problem."
>>
>> I don't want to bring it up at a meeting because it'll probably be a
>> long conversation and I didn't want to force everyone to sit through
>> it (or force people to chose between staying at a two hour meeting or
>> going home and being excluded.) Email's great for this kind of
>> discussion: people don't have to immediately respond to everything and
>> only the people who want to participate do.
>>
>> And from the number of people on this thread, people apparently do
>> want to talk about this. A few people are saying "sleeping overnight
>> is not a problem" and others are saying  "even napping is a problem",
>> but the way the issue is, if we shut down any discussion about it,
>> it's essentially giving the sleepers a free pass except for the rare
>> occasions when the Noisebridge-is-not-for-nappers folks are there to
>> wake people up.
>>
>> I want to hear people's reasons why they think napping is okay because
>> I don't think there are any valid reasons (but maybe I'm wrong.) What
>> I don't want to hear is people saying "let's stop talking about it" or
>> "it's not a problem and this discussion should end". There are people
>> who have a problem with it and it's not fair to ignore their
>> complaints by trying to get them to shut up.
>>
>> I'm against napping in the space, but I don't want to get my way
>> because I was able to badger enough people into submission or get a
>> loud enough group on my side. I want to listen to other people and
>> encourage them to speak their mind. It's clear there's no consensus on
>> this, but maybe we can figure out some kind of middle-ground besides
>> people continually bugged about the sleepers and the sleepers
>> continually bugged about being woken up or told to leave.
>>
>> It doesn't need to be resolved ASAP, it just needs to stop being put
>> off. So let's talk about it.
>>
>> -Al
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 7:35 PM, Just Duncan<justduncan at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>> AMEN!
>>>
>>> Very well put, Rubin!
>>>
>>> To those whose view of Noisebridge is primarily through the discussion
>> list,
>>> know that Noisebridge is excellent.
>>>
>>> As someone who is a regular part of the Noisebridge community, people
>>> sleeping here is not a problem.  Culturally, the community here handles
>>> things quite well using thoughtful, situational ethics and is strongly
>>> protective of the space, the community, and each other.  Noisebridge
>> works
>>> and doesn't need chaperones or self-appointed draconian authoritarians
>> whose
>>> sole purpose for a visit to Noisebridge is to tell people what to do.  If
>>> people in the space need help, we have the new 311 system on the red
>>> payphone to get assistance and it works brilliantly, when needed.
>>>
>>> Unless Al's answer to Rubin's question is "yes", let's let this thread
>> die a
>>> drama-less death.
>>>
>>> This thread is in no way relevant to Noisebridge at present.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 5:05 PM, Rubin Abdi<rubin at starset.net>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Why are we having an email discussion about this?
>>>>
>>>> Al: Have you been to Noisebridge recently, has someone sleeping in the
>>>> space offended you?
>>>>
>>>> Is there an apparent problem that needs attention ASAP?
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Rubin
>>>> rubin at starset.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
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-- 

------------------------
Liz Henry
liz at bookmaniac.org
http://bookmaniac.org

"Without models, it's hard to work; without a context, difficult to
evaluate; without peers, nearly impossible to speak." -- Joanna Russ