[Noisebridge-discuss] Turing: Equipment Removed

Matt Joyce matt at nycresistor.com
Tue Feb 28 17:54:02 UTC 2012

If Gian Pablo thinks you are being a dick and is willing to call you out on
it.  You ARE being a dick.
On Feb 28, 2012 8:59 AM, "Gian Pablo Villamil" <gian.pablo at gmail.com> wrote:

> Giving massive notice that you're going to be a dick does not excuse being
> a dick.
> On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 2:22 AM, Ronald Cotoni <setient at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I mostly agree as well but at the same time, there was apparently massive
>> notice given. I do notice all of the awesome work that Jim has put into the
>> placefrom both the classes he teaches as well as the physical work he has
>> done in the space.  I am sure we can come up with a better solution than
>> putting this equipment on the floor in Turing.
>> On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 11:43 PM, girlgeek <girlgeek at wt.net> wrote:
>>>  +1
>>> -Claudia
>>> On 2/27/2012 9:48 PM, Gian Pablo Villamil wrote:
>>> I stand with Jim on this.
>>>  His use of the space is, I think, one of the emblematic activities at
>>> Noisebridge, and one of the few that has taken place so consistently and
>>> effectively. Whatever he thinks he needs to do to make it happen, I support.
>>>  There are other far more important things to deal with at Noisebridge
>>> than the Turing classroom. I really don't understand the belligerent tone
>>> from Tom on this. What does he plan to do with the space once it is
>>> "cleaned up"? I know what Jim plans, and I heartily support it.
>>>  Give Jim the benefit of the doubt on this. Don't piss him off. We've
>>> already lost too many good people.
>>>  On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 3:36 PM, jim <jim at systemateka.com> wrote:
>>>>    Please read this. I do not believe this email is drama.
>>>> I've tried to articulate a problem and am asking for direct
>>>> responses at the least from Ben and Tom.
>>>>    Not only do I ask that you read, I ask that you read
>>>> thoughtfully.
>>>>    How did the drill press and saws get into the dirty
>>>> workshop? For that matter, how is it that the dirty workshop
>>>> is there? Likewise for the darkroom and the electronics area
>>>> with its 'scopes and soldering irons and lots and lots of
>>>> wires, semiconductors, passives.... Likewise for the sewing
>>>> area with the machines and the bins of material and drawers
>>>> of tools and supplies.
>>>>    How about the Tastebridge territory with its special
>>>> refrigerator and shelves of jars and so on, not to mention
>>>> the related kitchen with its shelves and cupboards and so on?
>>>>    Put things in member shelves? There are a couple of issues:
>>>> * spacebridge stuff occupies a number of shelves. Why?
>>>> * member shelves are subject to mismanagement, it's now obvious.
>>>>    As to Turing, do you have plans to remove the whiteboard
>>>> and/or the electrical conduit?
>>>>    Generally, the answers are that people saw opportunity for
>>>> making use of some area for some particular purpose. The
>>>> discussions preliminary to setting up various areas were as
>>>> varied as the areas and people who set them up. None of them
>>>> were subject to a meeting's discussion or consensus process or
>>>> anything else. Each was do-ocratically established, in some
>>>> cases with negotiations with others wrt their interests (e.g.
>>>> I negotiated the "library" space with those who'd claimed that
>>>> wall for photo display).
>>>>    The multiple discussions about classrooms in which I've
>>>> participated have noted the need for a classroom area that has
>>>> a projector and sound system, similar to the main area, and to
>>>> provide an alternative area so that smaller groups aren't stuck
>>>> with using the projector and sound system in the main area
>>>> (which allows people in the main area freedom from the needs of
>>>> a group using the main projector, etc.). Turing makes good sense
>>>> as such an alternate area.
>>>>    From time to time there have been do-ocratic efforts, both
>>>> in the space and on the mailing list, to clean things up and/or
>>>> reorganize and/or impress conformance.
>>>>    Those that took a positive tone to make improvements, in my
>>>> recall, were more successful (especially with respect to
>>>> emotional storms on the discuss list) than those that included
>>>> a negative proscriptive component.
>>>>    Questions that arise in my mind include "why are you focusing
>>>> on the turing classroom?" "why are you not focusing on the little
>>>> storage and rack closet?" Those are real questions, I'm hoping
>>>> for answers. (I've noticed Ben's response re "electrical closet".)
>>>>    I've not experienced such negatively oriented interference
>>>> in any other development of an area in our space. I'd like to
>>>> know why Turing and why now and why in this obnoxious manner.
>>>>    My intention is to set up the Turing classroom so that it
>>>> supports classes. I have a lot of experience as a classroom
>>>> lecturer--something like ten years in accredited schools, with
>>>> notable success.
>>>>    Note that I intend to continue setting up the Turing
>>>> classroom to be a good and useful classroom, and I expect, in
>>>> the spirit of do-ocracy and noisebridge's history, that you
>>>> will respect my efforts to do so.
>>>>    As far as I know, there has been no time when the Turing
>>>> classroom didn't work for a meeting or class. Space in that
>>>> room has not been at a premium so far, even with the stuff
>>>> that's been squirreled in there under tables against the north
>>>> wall (much or most of it not related to any building or
>>>> improvement that i know of).
>>>>    A people reading this may recall my occasional pleas in
>>>> Tuesday evening meetings for people to step up and take
>>>> ownership of various spaces. A few of you have done so, and
>>>> with respect to electricity, when you've asked for electrical
>>>> devices, I've tried to help out:
>>>> * outlets on the south wall (now buried by shelves)
>>>> * large capacity run to the kitchen area
>>>> * removing and reorganizing the electrical mess that we
>>>>  inherited
>>>> * totally rebuilt the guts of the primary three-phase sub-panel
>>>> * installed interior entrance lights
>>>> * brought three-phase availability in the dirty shop
>>>> * all darkroom electricity
>>>> * east end lighting improvement
>>>> * laser cutter dedicated circuit
>>>> * main room ceiling lights and switches
>>>> * infrastructure closet lighting and power
>>>>    I've given up trying to defend order in the infrastructure
>>>> closet, having built all shelves and storage areas to see them
>>>> trashed, filled with random stuff, shelving materials removed,
>>>> and noisebridge electrical supplies removed to piles, wrecking
>>>> the organization I'd worked hard on.
>>>>    As long as I'm building this list, I'll add: I was one of
>>>> the few who championed improving the floor before we moved in
>>>> and I put a lot of hours working on the prep and sanding and
>>>> filling and finishing.
>>>>    Can you understand that the censorious manner you're taking
>>>> to my work to improve the Turing classroom is irritating?
>>>>    As I wrote earlier in this email, I have not witnessed such
>>>> an approach as you have taken with respect to any other area in
>>>> the time we've been either here, at 2169, or at 83C weisse. I
>>>> ask again: why are you acting in this way?
>>>>    Note I'm not complaining about trying to improve things; I'm
>>>> complaining hard about the way you're demanding behavior that
>>>> has been actually sanctioned for every other improvement in the
>>>> past. (Note also that the build-out policy is that people can
>>>> bring and leave their personal tools and supplies needed to do
>>>> their work as long as they label their tools and supplies.)
>>>>    I expect that you will, at the least, let me continue to
>>>> try to improve the Turing classroom by curtailing behavior that
>>>> demands foolish conformity and is contradictory to established
>>>> Noisebridge norms for improving the space.
>>>>    I welcome cleaning and organizing efforts. I have pretty
>>>> much given up on trying to rescue or reorganize Noisebridge
>>>> supplies such as (expensive) copper wire. When we run out of
>>>> wire, I'll not resupply--I've spent enough already. If you've
>>>> thrown out the wire that Noisebridge has paid for, please go
>>>> to an electrical supply store and replace it.
>>>>    I'd like positive support, but i'll gladly take silence.
>>>> On Sun, 2012-02-26 at 22:19 -0800, Ben Kochie wrote:
>>>> > Jim, storing things in the classroom, while traditional, is still not
>>>> > the intended use for that space.  We have been trying to clean up the
>>>> > room and make it more habitable and inviting for classes of all kinds.
>>>> >  The things you talk about are in their appropriate locations.
>>>> >
>>>> > Yes, I know you teach classes in there, but that's only a day or two a
>>>> > week.  If you want to setup a permanent location for teaching Linux
>>>> > serving, please talk to me on Tuesday night.  I'd love to help.
>>>> >
>>>> > I cleaned out the ewaste and some other garbage from the electrical
>>>> > closet.  I have a bit more organizing to do, but there should be more
>>>> > than enough room to hold all the electrical spare parts in there.
>>>> >
>>>> > On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 19:02, jim <jim at well.com> wrote:
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > >    Do you plan to take the saws and drills out of
>>>> > > the dirty workshop? remove the refrigerator from
>>>> > > the kitchen area? How about the sewing machines
>>>> > > and oscilloscopes?
>>>> > >    I'd like to meet you and talk.
>>>> > > jim
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > > On Sun, 2012-02-26 at 17:41 -0800, Tom wrote:
>>>> > >> As I said on the list almost two weeks ago, then announced at last
>>>> > >> week's meeting, I have removed the computer/audio equipment and
>>>> > >> speakers from Turing, and placed them in the e-waste pile. Please
>>>> find
>>>> > >> them a better home on your hacker shelf, or somewhere else where
>>>> space
>>>> > >> is not a premium! If you do so, go ahead and use them for classes
>>>> in
>>>> > >> Turing, but remove them afterwards. If these items end up stored in
>>>> > >> Turing again, I intend to remove them permanently.
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > > _______________________________________________
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>>>> > > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> > > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
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>> --
>> Ronald Cotoni
>> Systems Engineer
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