[Noisebridge-discuss] I got groped at noisebridge at hackmeet

Sun Oct 21 18:08:47 UTC 2012

Ever falling, you are not a douchebag for harboring doubts. That is 100%
natural. You are a douchebag for the following paragraph, which I will help
you in examining. You make a classic logic error here that will, upon
examination, help us all to learn to avoid turning our doubts into
douchebaggery.

I do hope you'll all play along!

>
She may have very well have been assaulted and that should be taken very
seriously. But it's also possible that this could have been a
misunderstanding but with such a limited description it's impossible to
tell. That's why i merely asked for more information and whether or not she
felt it could possibly have been an accident or if the guy up and full
palmed her breast and walked away.

Here is the flaw in your logic. If you believed the witness description,
then you already have this information, ie, the person came forward BECAUSE
the incident was already determined by them to not be an accident.
Certainly you aren't required to trust another person's judgement but the
additional info you request would be coming from them, and is the info they
used to make the call to go public about the incident.  If she felt it
could have been an accident then she probably wouldn't have been all "this
was no accident guise".  It is not your doubt but your framing that is an
issue.  Word choice matters, quite a bit it turns out.

It makes sense to have a way for people to put in or request additional
info, hopefully we can come up with a less obnoxious way of framing it.

>
If my post was somehow interpreted as being unfair and erring on the side
of "nothing happened, move along" then i apologize as that was not my
intention. Sexual assault is very serious and as such i feel it should be
handled as thoroughly as possible without jumping to any conclusions be
they full on trust or incredulity.
>

So instead of whingeing about our doubts let's talk about what kinds of
reactions we could encourage that would be good for everyone.  This is a
good use case because there is no named perpetrator, and we don't have a
specific expectation to 'catch' someone... but there was an incident! What
should we do?! Can we create a reasonable burden of proof without inserting
our own potentially douchey perspectives on things? Do we have a right to?
Susan basically delivered a testimony to the list. We can harbor our own
private doubts while still treating it as a piece of evidence.  I haven't
spoken to her personally about this and am not sure what her goals are, but
I am interested in meta-working on our response when there is an incident
or accusation.

I like the idea of identifying mediator-etc types more visibly.  Stuff is
definitely better dealt with in the moment when possible.

I am wondering if Liz or others have some suggestions about best practices
in this kind of scenario?  Definitely am thinking we need to beef up
expectations for event producers in the space, providing some tools for
preventing shit like this. Maybe ill try to connect with hackmeet folks to
help build some documentation around this. They seemed really upset to hear
about what happened.

Let's help people learn some better ways to react.

R.

>
> On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 11:17 PM, Liz Henry <liz at bookmaniac.org> wrote:
>>
>> Everfalling:
>>
>> I don't think this is an appropriate question. If I ever have a similar
>> thing happen to me at the space, I would be very uncomfortable being
>> cross examined about it and having my own judgment of what happened
>> dismissed.   That is what you just did to Susan and it is really wrong,
>> and embarrassing.   Yet it is what women inevitably face when they try
>> to report sexual harassment and assault.  And then when we don't report
>> it and simply go away, everyone wonders why and faults us for that.   A
>> situation I certainly HAVE faced many times and probably will again in
life.
>>
>> Whoever you are Ever Falling, could you talk to me in person some time?
>> I would discuss the issues if you want to have some sort of discussion,
>> but would prefer that to happen in person.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Liz
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/20/12 10:59 PM, Ever Falling wrote:
>> > For the sake of a fuller picture could you be specific about where you
were
>> > when you were touched, what the surroundings were like (crowded? were
you
>> > alone? sitting? standing?), and how much you feel like it was
unmistakably
>> > intentional and not accidental? Also could you be more specific about
the
>> > reactions of others around you afterward? Had they seen it happen and
chose
>> > to say nothing? Did they not see it but you tried bringing it up to
them
>> > and they ignored you? Do you have any description of the person who
touched
>> > you?
>> >
>> > Not to at all take away from what might very well be an assault but on
face
>> > value your description of the events could be seen as an accidental
grazing
>> > due to the crowd and then, since it was an accident and no one else saw
>> > this, everyone seemed to go about their business like nothing happened
>> > because for all they know nothing did.
>> >
>> > On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 7:31 PM, Eric W. Rasmussen <ewr at majortek.com>
wrote:
>> >
>> >> Who was it? Describe them. I will take on this effort. Email me
personally
>> >> if needed.
>> >>
>> >> You are correct that this has been an issue in the space. I, for one,
try
>> >> to invite more women into the space. Women bring a new prospective. I
wish
>> >> there were more children because they do the same.
>> >>
>> >> Noisebridge is a learning establishment. It's not fair that you've
learned
>> >> aggression.
>> >>
>> >> I personally apologize for the actions made against you. You can
always
>> >> call me to your attention if something disagreeable happens. I regret
that
>> >> I may not have been present.
>> >>
>> >> Please don't give up on us. If you want to hand your key to me, I will
>> >> hand it off to another woman and make sure she is safe. Or, I will
hold it
>> >> for you upon your return.
>> >>
>> >> Please accept my apology on behalf of the collective.
>> >>
>> >> ewr
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 10/20/2012 07:19 PM, Susan Werner wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> I went to hackmeet today, tried to join in a few conversations, and
got
>> >>> told
>> >>> to fuck off because I don't already know people. As I was crying and
>> >>> talking
>> >>> to someone on the Internet about how these kinds of events are
>> >>> intentionally
>> >>> hostile to people who don't already have significant social
connections,
>> >>> some
>> >>> guy walks by me, and rubs his hand on my right breast, and calmly
walks
>> >>> on as
>> >>> if nothing happened.
>> >>>
>> >>> I got groped while I was crying at noisebridge, during an event with
lots
>> >>> of
>> >>> people at it, and nobody did anything. Nobody spoke a word to me.
Nobody
>> >>> offered any kind of help whatsoever, and lots of people walked by
me, as
>> >>> I was
>> >>> there for about half an hour after that happened.
>> >>>
>> >>> I'm done with noisebridge, done with its community which enables
sexual
>> >>> assault, done with events which are intentionally hostile to
newcomers,
>> >>> done
>> >>> with all the bullshit about it being an "anarchist space" where
nothing
>> >>> can be
>> >>> said about entitled jerks who make the space hostile for others.
>> >>>
>> >>> Until someone works on the whole "hostility to newcomers" bit of
hacker
>> >>> culture, harassment will be endemic. As long as newcomers are seen as
>> >>> people to
>> >>> be excluded and hazed, no amount of non-harassment policies or codes
of
>> >>> conduct
>> >>> will do anything substantial.
>> >>>
>> >>> Kicking out the people who grope isn't enough and won't cause
systemic
>> >>> change.
>> >>> Change the culture which encourages treating newcomers and outsiders
like
>> >>> shit,
>> >>> and ignores anything anyone does to newcomers, don't just kick out
people
>> >>> who
>> >>> further this sort of culture.
>> >>>
>> >>> Have fun with your hackerspaces and your shitty-ass subculture based
on
>> >>> exclusion and abuse. I don't even need to talk to people like y'all
and
>> >>> I'm not
>> >>> going to spend a moment of extra time with a bunch of people who
can't
>> >>> even
>> >>> look at me after I get groped in front of fifteen people.
>> >>>
>> >>> I have a key to noisebridge. If anyone wants it, let me know.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >> ______________________________**_________________
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>> >> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.**noisebridge.net<
Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>
>> >> https://www.noisebridge.net/**mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-**discuss<
https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
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>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> ------------------------
>> Liz Henry
>> liz at bookmaniac.org
>> http://bookmaniac.org
>>
>> "Without models, it's hard to work; without a context, difficult to
>> evaluate; without peers, nearly impossible to speak." -- Joanna Russ
>> _______________________________________________
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>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>
>
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