[Noisebridge-discuss] I got groped at noisebridge at hackmeet

Danny O'Brien danny at spesh.com
Mon Oct 22 23:17:56 UTC 2012


On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 3:02 PM, daravinne <daravinne at gmail.com> wrote:
> Jesus H. Christ in a flying rat vagina, what the actual fuck is wrong
> with you people?  I honestly don't even have words for how completely
> fucked this is.  It makes me want to get a pliers from the dirty shop
> and start breaking fingers until everyone's learned their lesson.
>

I want to point out one thing, which is that I think for me the
cultural backdrop is more important than the accountability issue.
Noisebridge does pretty well at doing things for which you get
automatic kudos, and which are obviously fairly constrained or
technical.

Issues like this which involve blowback are harder to get people
behind, because it means sometimes actively working against people's
existing ingrained attitudes. It's no harder than anywhere else, I
think. What makes Noisebridge different is that we have these
arguments (very) publicly, so people think that this is a uniquely
Noisebridgian problem. They think that Noisebridge is this cesspool
where all of this stuff originates.

It's not. This stuff is rife everywhere, and very few people step up
to do something about it here or anywhere else. My main hope is that
at least at Noisebridge we have an opportunity to hear what is
happening, and learn from fucking up in public.

Of course, that means we actually have to do that thing.

d.


> There is a culture specific to noisebridge of nonaccountability.
> There is no real penalty for unacceptable behavior.  There is no
> repercussion to an individual or individuals who cross a line or harm
> another person.  The process of consensus must be applied to
> EVERYTHING, such that no cohesive group action can be performed
> efficiently or quickly, if at all.  "Do-ocracy" subs for group action
> but has no lasting effect on the psychology of the group or how it
> functions.  I have often described it as a black hole into which one
> can throw unlimited amounts of resources with no return.
>
> There is also a culture specific to the hacker community of pervasive
> emotional abuse, executed in such a way that promotes mistrust,
> paranoia, fear and aggression among peers and friends.  Nonvigilance
> guarantees victimhood, and victims are reminded that it's their fault
> for not being vigilant enough or not striking first.  Infosec is the
> biggest offender by far, but this mindset has spilled over into
> anything connected to the hacker scene and culture.  Bonus prizes
> include sexist behavior and ideology among both genders, a generous
> sprinkling of rape culture, and all the slut-shaming your heart could
> desire.
>
> Mash these two things together, and you get "a woman goes to a hacker
> party and is alienated by the local hacker community to the point
> where she is publicly crying, and is then sexually assaulted while
> crying, in front of community members who do nothing. This same
> community proceeds to then lash out at her ON THE INTERNET for
> complaining about being sexually assaulted."
>
> Holy everloving shit, I'm in r/creepshots.
>
> Oh, and don't try and hand me that "noisebridge-discuss isn't the same
> as the people in the actual space, isn't the same at the irc channel".
>  You people pass the buck so fast I'm surprised DARPA hasn't claimed
> it for renewable energy.   Everyone who does something in conjunction
> with the noisebridge name publicly represents the space and
> philosophy, whether you like it or not.  I have been uncomfortable for
> a long time with declaring any association with noisebridge, because
> of shit like this.  The noisebridge community is an embarrassment, and
> has been for a while.  Fuck your bedbugs, fuck your robot, fuck your
> kitchen, fuck yo couch.
>
> I appreciate those who have taken this seriously, vonguard and danny
> and ron and liz and whoever else i'm forgetting.   I have been through
> many incidences of emotional and physical abuse from hackers, and
> those incidences have been witnessed by hackers, who have sat by and
> done nothing, or blamed me if I tried to stand up for myself.  As
> someone who has experienced abusive behavior in the hacker community
> for years, the statement "we should probably be more proactive about
> this" feels inadequate.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 11:52 AM, Danny O'Brien <danny at spesh.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 9:30 AM, VonGuard <vonguard at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Wow. Really Noisebridge? I am so utterly disappointed in everything
>>> about this email and the reaction to it that I am appalled and ashamed
>>> that I was every associated with the space to begin with.
>>>
>>> I sat down in front of the assembled membership 2 years ago and was
>>> almost in tears explaining why this sort of shit had to be taken
>>> seriously, and why Noisebridge could NOT tollerate this typoe of
>>> sexist behavior in the space. It was a fight to get ya'll to recognize
>>> it then. I see now my efforts were pointless.
>>>
>>
>> Hi VonGuard,
>>
>> I remember your seriousness, and it was appreciated. I think you need
>> to separate in reading what's happening here from people who are
>> actually using the space, and working on this stuff, and people who
>> are just on nb-discuss, throwing in their points.
>>
>> Not everything is visible on this mailing list. Without going into too
>> many details because I think that's Susan's right to talk about these
>> things, several people offlist and on and connected with Noisebridge
>> stepped up to make sure she had a safe space yesterday and today, got
>> to talk  through what had happened and how we could make things better
>> for Susan in the future.
>>
>> Hackmeet was an external event that had over 150 people I'll let them
>> chip in with how they're going to do things differently, but I'll note
>> that they had a whole session devoted to their anti-harassment policy
>> and so forth at the beginning of the day -- a system that clearly
>> failed in this case, but a sign that they were not unaware of the
>> problem.
>>
>> I don't mind having arguments with people who don't take this stuff
>> seriously, or trivilize it. I see having that battle as being a part
>> of what makes Noisebridge what it is. You can throw your hands up in
>> the air and say it's all shit and walk away to build a place that you
>> think is safer and better, and I understand and applaud that. But
>> please don't dismiss what we try to do and call us shit for working to
>> make things better where we stand.
>>
>> d.
>>
>>> I apologize to you Susan for the awful behavior of people in the space
>>> and on this list. You're very right in not ever wanting to come back.
>>> Noisebridge has changed. Noisebridge is pure shit now.
>>>
>>> This reminds me of Reddit, where rapists are protected and normal
>>> people or accusers are ostracized. Good job people, you fucked up
>>> Noisebridge with your privileged male-ness.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 7:19 PM, Susan Werner <heinousbutch at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I went to hackmeet today, tried to join in a few conversations, and got told
>>>> to fuck off because I don't already know people. As I was crying and talking
>>>> to someone on the Internet about how these kinds of events are intentionally
>>>> hostile to people who don't already have significant social connections, some
>>>> guy walks by me, and rubs his hand on my right breast, and calmly walks on as
>>>> if nothing happened.
>>>>
>>>> I got groped while I was crying at noisebridge, during an event with lots of
>>>> people at it, and nobody did anything. Nobody spoke a word to me. Nobody
>>>> offered any kind of help whatsoever, and lots of people walked by me, as I was
>>>> there for about half an hour after that happened.
>>>>
>>>> I'm done with noisebridge, done with its community which enables sexual
>>>> assault, done with events which are intentionally hostile to newcomers, done
>>>> with all the bullshit about it being an "anarchist space" where nothing can be
>>>> said about entitled jerks who make the space hostile for others.
>>>>
>>>> Until someone works on the whole "hostility to newcomers" bit of hacker
>>>> culture, harassment will be endemic. As long as newcomers are seen as people to
>>>> be excluded and hazed, no amount of non-harassment policies or codes of conduct
>>>> will do anything substantial.
>>>>
>>>> Kicking out the people who grope isn't enough and won't cause systemic change.
>>>> Change the culture which encourages treating newcomers and outsiders like shit,
>>>> and ignores anything anyone does to newcomers, don't just kick out people who
>>>> further this sort of culture.
>>>>
>>>> Have fun with your hackerspaces and your shitty-ass subculture based on
>>>> exclusion and abuse. I don't even need to talk to people like y'all and I'm not
>>>> going to spend a moment of extra time with a bunch of people who can't even
>>>> look at me after I get groped in front of fifteen people.
>>>>
>>>> I have a key to noisebridge. If anyone wants it, let me know.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Susan
>>>>
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