[Noisebridge-discuss] Benevolent Sexism (Noisebridge's "Ask And Tell Culture")

Sat Apr 6 23:04:47 UTC 2013

On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 2:11 PM, Liz Henry <lizhenry at gmail.com> wrote:

> it is very telling to me when people step in to help me because I'm
> disabled or they offer help, but when I refuse the help, they get *angry*.
> Often I can see their anger ready, even before I refuse,  like they expect
> me to refuse it and are already gearing up to lash out.  It is about them
> and their feelings.
>

As a biased observer, I'd like to corroborate this. I've seen people offer
to help Liz, sometimes effectively sabotaging what she is trying to do, and
then when she tries to politely decline her help, they get *incredibly*
angry. Like swearing at person-in-a-wheelchair angry, or going "well!",
glaring at her and chattering loudly to their friend about how "they were
only trying to help" as though she was not in the room. I've seen people
actually try to wheel Liz off, and then be furious when she tries to get
away from the kidnapping person involved.

Sometimes this happens even as somebody who is not obviously labelled as
"needing help" is struggling nearby, ie a middle-aged lady trying to get on
the bus with their bags, or a person who is obviously lost, and who is
never given even the opportunity of declining help.

I think people don't help these people for the same reason as, ultimately,
they try to help Liz -- that they're trying to guess who might be demeaned
by being helped, and who it is socially acceptable to help. They miss
people who need their help, because they never think to offer it, but also
are angry at the person declining help because their is no socially
acceptable way for a person who should "expect" help to refuse it.

The actual lesson that I've learned from going through all of this outside
Noisebridge, but mostly by seeing what works *in* Noisebridge, is to junk
your belief in your social expectations, and just ask first.

Whereever you come from, Noisebridge is an *extreme* Ask Culture
environment. (See
http://ask.metafilter.com/55153/Whats-the-middle-ground-between-FU-and-Welcome#830421for
the difference). It has its roots in a subculture that is not very
good
at guessing social cues, has a social interaction mode that finds it hard
to express affect, and draws from an extremely diverse group of people
whose expectations (or capabilities) cannot simply be determined by their
outside appearance. Within Noisebridge, I believe the following cultural
norms to be useful and true:

ASK
It is almost *always* useful to politely ASK to establish people's feelings
about their current state. "Do you mind if I hold a meeting here?", "Would
you like help with that?", "Is this chainsaw too noisy?", "Am I talking too
much to you?".

I come from a mostly Guess Culture, and watching people like Liz and Mitch
and Mek and Shannon and others adopt this style in Noisebridge was
eye-opening. I do it all the time now, and people are mostly surprised and
happy, and with the feedback get better at interaction. I always think Mek
is the master at this interaction, because he always says it with such
eagerness, and is unbothered by whatever the reply. He is very inspiring.

TELL
If you are affected by something in Noisebridge, it is *mostly* useful to
TELL the people involved. It requires a bit more contextual diplomacy, and
is far stranger than the outside world, and people are more shocked by its
deployment, but it's incredibly useful, and most Noisebridgers are not
offended (or more to the point, you will get more sympathy from other
Noisebridgers if you do this in a social setting than you might elsewhere).

If someone is bothering me, I say things like "Actually, I am working on a
project now, and you have been talking with me a long time, so I need to
stop talking and go back to work.", or "Could you stand away from me? You
are talking very loudly right next to my ear", or "Thank you very much, but
I would rather learn how to solder this equipment, rather than have you
take over and fix it for me".

This even extends to "Actually I am still feeling mad about what you said
on the mailing list, so I would rather not talk to you right now", or "You
kind of smell funny at the moment, and so I'd rather you didn't sit next to
me", or, classically, "I believe your current opinions are the product of a
mental illness, and so think that discussing them further would be
unproductive".

When I first heard people saying such blatantly frank things to one another
at Noisebridge, it made me laugh (and still does), because it was like
hearing robots talk to other robots. But when I started adopting it as a
mannerism myself (and consciously thinking "Okay, I'll try to sound like
one of the Noisebridge robots"), it was so instantly liberating and useful
that now I am rather sad that other places aren't more like this.

DON'T BE SHOCKED BY ASK AND TELL

Both of these behaviours are considered odd in the outside world, and it's
easy to take offence either way, either because you come from a Guess
culture (see above link), or because someone is asking your permission to
do something that seems fucking insane, or telling you that they are upset
by something you believe to be entirely harmless. Nonetheless, the extra
information, on its own, is useful, and, if you can get over your shock,
can be accepted at face value.

There were lots of questions or things that I was told at Noisebridge which
I initially responded to with amazement or even anger, which I have later
accepted as incredibly useful revelations, either about the
inappropriateness of my own behaviour, or why I might want to spend more or
less time with someone else.

Of course, it's entirely possible to misuse ask and tell in order to
passively-aggressively insult someone, or pull off some creepazoid
mind-game: "Do you mind if I tell you you're gorgeous?", "May I ask you to
fuck off and never come back?" or whatever. But it's usually useful to
assume good faith: at the very least, an honest answer back at least
provides an outlet for your suspicions. "Yes, I do mind, and would like you
to stay away for a bit", "You can ask, but I feel comfortable where I am,
unless you wish to escalate", etc.

d.

>
> (In fact what is usually happening is a person opens a door "for me" while
> they stand right exactly in my way. I am required to be grateful and
> gracious and gender does play into that as well as disability. )
>
> If someone really wanted to be helpful they would not be pre-loaded with
> resentment, and they would listen when the object of their "help" says no I
> don't want any help thanks.
>
> So, is it that you want to offer help, or is it that you want to be **the
> sort of person who helps ---  and gets thanked**. If it is about you, you
> have to tamp it down, basic principle of respect and human decency here.
>
> I certainly wish that it were not so complex.  I very much like it when
> people are helpful, and I also like to be helpful to others.  Usually that
> includes communicating and listening.
>
> Link I hear you on your intentions being good but your actions exist in a
> social context, right?
>
>
> - liz
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 1:55 PM, Mitchel McAllister <xonimmortal at yahoo.com>wrote:
>
>> Yeah, the day I stop offering to help is the day they shove me down the
>> conveyor belt into the crematorium.
>>
>> Maybe I'm weird, but when someone offers to help, I take it as a sign
>> that they care.
>>
>>
>> - Reverend Mik McAllister
>> ------------------------------
>> "You can see the summit but you can't reach it
>> Its the last piece of the puzzle but you just can't make it fit
>> Doctor says you're cured but you still feel the pain
>> Aspirations in the clouds but your hopes go down the drain"
>>  - Howard Jones, "No One Is To Blame"
>> ------------------------------
>> Purveyor of Subversive Fiction
>> http://www.prismandink.com
>> http://www.lunatextpublications.com
>>
>> --- On *Sat, 4/6/13, ryan rawson <ryanobjc at gmail.com>* wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: ryan rawson <ryanobjc at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] Benevolent Sexism
>> To: "noisebridge-discuss at lists noisebridge. net" <
>> noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>
>> Date: Saturday, April 6, 2013, 12:55 PM
>>
>>
>> As a Canadian, I have been preprogrammed with politeness which is why I
>> don't:
>>
>> - go out of my way to help you with the door
>> - carry stuff for you without being asked
>> - try to solve your problems for you without being asked
>> - any action that could be interpreted as sexism, ableism, ageism, etc
>>
>> Which is more rude, not helping that person in a wheelchair or being
>> presumptuous and assuming they need help?
>>
>> I have chosen the latter. I hope you will as well.
>>
>> In polite non-rudeness,
>> ryan
>>
>>
>>
>> On Apr 6, 2013, at 12:35 PM, Snail <snailtsunami at gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=snailtsunami@gmail.com>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I would like to say that I'm sorry that I don't want your help putting my
>> bike on the bike rack, but I'm not really sorry.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 12:32 PM, LinkReincarnate <
>> linkreincarnate at gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=linkreincarnate@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>>
>> First of all You are making a lot of assumptions here. And secondly you
>> are ascribing the actions of other men to me.
>>
>> 1 I never took anything out of your hand or stepped "In your way" as you
>> put it.  I was standing to the side of the bike and putting my hand under
>> the wheel to get it unstuck.  I didn't even get near your personal space.
>> 2 I never offered (or would have offered) a lecture about how to remove
>> the bike from the rack or comments that you are doing it wrong.
>> 3 You dont know what those men think anymore than I do
>>
>> Fact of the matter is that your sex had no bearing whatsoever on my
>> actions  but you automatically assumed that was why I was helping. You even
>> assumed that after I explicitly stated that was not the case. That type of
>> attitude is divisive and counterproductive.
>>  On Apr 6, 2013 12:12 PM, "Snail" <snailtsunami at gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=snailtsunami@gmail.com>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> You misspelled my name :P
>>
>> People -constantly- try to help me with my bike on the rack at
>> Noisebridge when I don't manage to hike it up in one swoop. They -always-
>> try to explain to me how I'm doing it wrong. They -always- think I don't
>> understand the problem or that I can't do it myself. It's always a man who
>> does this.
>>
>> It would be annoying even if I were a man, to be doing a simple task and
>> have someone male or female --jump in my way and literally try to take it
>> out of my hands while I'm working on it--.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 12:01 PM, LinkReincarnate <
>> linkreincarnate at gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=linkreincarnate@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>>
>> Benevolent Sexism exists.  I am not here to argue that is does not.  I
>> will point out that there is a lot of behavior that overlaps with
>> Benevolent Sexist behaviors.  For example I was in the space and  snell was
>> trying to get her bike off of the rack.  From my angle I could see that the
>> tire was still stuck on the hook so I tried to lift the tire off of the
>> hook.  Snell didn't like this and told me to stop. I did.  The only reason
>> I could see for her not wanting my help was because I was a man, she was a
>> woman, and heavy lifting was involved.   The problem is that I was not
>> helping her out of a sense that "she's just a frail woman"  I was helping
>> her because I saw what was causing her problems.  (And she appeared to be
>> at an angle that obscured the problem) Had she been a man I would have
>> still helped remove the bike from the rack.    So while benevolent sexism
>> exists lets not go overboard in reacting to perceived benevolent sexism.
>> There a lots and lots of prosocial behaviors that overlap with benevolent
>> sexism and without knowing the other persons thoughts and motivation for
>> initiating an act you cannot tell one from the other.  In other words give
>> people the benefit of the doubt.  If you see some behavior that you think
>> is benevolently sexist rather than scowl at the person for it, check
>> yourself.  Is there a possibility that this person's actions were not in
>> fact motivated by my sex?  Is there a possibility that by being so
>> hypervigilant for sexism that I am finding false positives?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net<http://mc/compose?to=Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net>
>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> -Snailssnailssnailssnailssnailssnailssnails
>> ............. _ at y
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> -Snailssnailssnailssnailssnailssnailssnails
>> ............. _ at y
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net<http://mc/compose?to=Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net>
>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>
>>
>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net<http://mc/compose?to=Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net>
>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
> Liz Henry
> lhenry at mozilla.com
> lizhenry at gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/attachments/20130406/b79b3afb/attachment.html>