[Noisebridge-discuss] The door situation is not working.

Sean Kolk sean.kolk at gmail.com
Thu Apr 11 04:34:08 UTC 2013


oh!

Awesome, thanks Danny!


On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 7:43 PM, Danny O'Brien <danny at spesh.com> wrote:

> Guys, I already *said*. You can get door numbers and keys the same way as
> you've always done. Mail jake, or ask someone to give you a key. I've given
> out a bunch already this week.
>
> This is just an alternative way of guiding people to get shell accounts,
> doorcodes, show them how to use the wiki and so forth.
>
> d.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Sean Kolk <sean.kolk at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> hrumm... well this is unfortunate, so there's no timeline in essence, and
>> the whole point of a door is to allow people (old and new) in....
>> what about making a new system or even a manual (pull string)
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 8:40 PM, maestro <maestro415 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> # niiicely done...
>>>
>>> end comments
>>>
>>>
>>> message ends
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 5:34 PM, Kellan Jacobs <kellan at grokbsd.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hey Everyone,
>>>>
>>>> I have a few thoughts on this. First I should state that I am one of
>>>> those people who donated during the pledge drive and I have been teaching
>>>> the Python class at NB since the beginning. First while I like what your
>>>> trying to do Danny with having the NB101 sessions. While I love the idea of
>>>> the class I would take issue with this being used as a litmus test to give
>>>> people access to the building.
>>>>
>>>> In my own case I have been teaching at NB and contributing to the
>>>> community for quite some time now. I feel I have put in my time helping
>>>> make noisebridge a better place. Being forced to attend a 5 week class just
>>>> so I can contribute to my community after having done so for so long is
>>>> asking a little much.
>>>>
>>>> Secondly in your fundraising email you stated that any donation of $10
>>>> or more would award you with a key to NB. While I donated out of NB need, I
>>>> am sure there are many that made the decision because of this promise. To
>>>> back out on your promise now after you received the funds from us is not
>>>> only unfair but bait and switch. Maybe this class could be offered going
>>>> forward.
>>>>
>>>> Third - I would like to comment on the general idea of the door code. I
>>>> think the idea of giving door codes to paying members of the community is
>>>> general a good idea. We can simply deactivate their code when they choose
>>>> to stop paying membership.
>>>>
>>>> Lastly - As one of the noisebridge instructors I have had times when
>>>> the door is broken or no one will answer it. I have had to call one of my
>>>> students and have them come and let me into the space so I could teach our
>>>> class. This is simply not ok. There needs to be a some trusted people who
>>>> have keys to NB.
>>>>
>>>> Moving forward I think NB Should honor the requests door codes for
>>>> those who contributed. It is the right thing to do, but I think having a
>>>> better policy going forward would be perfectly ok.
>>>>
>>>> Lastly in picking this process I want to tell you the reason it took me
>>>> so long to financially support noisebridge. The process is simply too
>>>> difficult. I have often looked at the membership page and thought about
>>>> becoming a full dues paying member. But the process is way too hard. I can
>>>> access the space without contributing but to contribute I have to jump
>>>> through a bunch of hoops. I am currently paying the 80 membership fee, but
>>>> I don't know if I can find two people who are actual members to sponsor me.
>>>> Everyone I have asked are not actual paying members. The reason I bring
>>>> this up is that when you are making this new door code/key policy please
>>>> remember my reasons for not contributing and consider it when making the
>>>> new policy. Please make one that is not too much work. We want to be a
>>>> welcoming and open place and making too many rules in an anarchy to keep
>>>> people out is just not the way to build a community.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Kellan Jacobs
>>>>
>>>> On 9 Apr 2013, at 15:53, Danny O'Brien wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  This is exactly what I wanted, including the bit at the end where you
>>>>> tell
>>>>> me off for envisaging some sort of mad rulemaking process.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am personally a bit sceptical about the doorcode-as-door-opener thing
>>>>> working, and still dumb on the NOISEBRIDGE PEOPLE bit, but I the bit I
>>>>> can
>>>>> help with is getting out more codes to donors (so there's more people
>>>>> who
>>>>> can both come in and let people in easily), and some sort of cultural
>>>>> acculturation thing.
>>>>>
>>>>> (Buried in this thread so as to not get people's hopes up too much)
>>>>>
>>>>> I am going to (haphazardly) start organizing the long mooted
>>>>> Noisebridge
>>>>> 101 session on Mondays at 6.00 (when it's not technoactivism mondays).
>>>>> I'm
>>>>> travelling slightly more than usual in the next few weeks, so it will
>>>>> really be extra haphazard for a bit, but I will try to get other
>>>>> people to
>>>>> host while I am away.
>>>>>
>>>>> People attending 5 sessions will get a door code, a wiki account, a
>>>>> shell
>>>>> account, a PGP key signed by their fellow Noisebridigans, and a stamp
>>>>> in
>>>>> their hackerspace passport showing that they are a Noisebridge Most
>>>>> Excellency.
>>>>>
>>>>> Things you will learn will be:
>>>>>
>>>>> A Brief History of Techno-Anarchy: Free Culture, Hacker Culture, and
>>>>> Noisebridge Culture
>>>>> Noisebridge University -- Which Classes And Meetups Are For You?
>>>>> You Are So Cypherpunk -- Basic Digital Security at Noisebridge and the
>>>>> World
>>>>> How to use the Wiki, and Other Eldritch Virtual Arts
>>>>> Creepus Expelliarmus! Role-playing Awkward Noisebridge Situations
>>>>> Discordianism, Consenso, and Tales of High Drama: Noisebridge Folk
>>>>> Mythology
>>>>> Safety Third! Basic safety and Third Aid
>>>>> Ask And Tell: The Dork's Guide To Excellent Social Interaction
>>>>> Rollercoaster Hardware Tour: The Lasercutter, Vinyl Cutter, and Other
>>>>> Awesomesss
>>>>> Using and Contributing to Free Software: Linux, Mozilla, Plan 9, and
>>>>> Noisebridge's Pony
>>>>>
>>>>> What do people think?
>>>>> any other suggestions?
>>>>>
>>>>> d.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> d.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> d.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 2:39 AM, Jake <jake at spaz.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  On Sat, 6 Apr 2013, Danny O'Brien wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Yeah, I think that the DOOR button is actually broken or *something*,
>>>>>>> and that's what's annoying people right now.
>>>>>>> Jake you know the door system better than anyone at this point -- is
>>>>>>> there something that could be (sporadically or not) preventing the
>>>>>>> DOOR
>>>>>>> button from working?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am going to assume someone disabled it.  They should have made an
>>>>>> announcement or something on the list.  I made announcements several
>>>>>> times
>>>>>> that i was going to do it and was met with approval, but i never got
>>>>>> around
>>>>>> to it.  I think it's a good idea and we should get used to it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There seems to be a bunch of things like timers hanging off the door
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> system downstairs. Could they be causing problems?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> the stuff downstairs has nothing to do with the door button.  There
>>>>>> is a
>>>>>> conventional 24-hour light timer for the lights that are supposed to
>>>>>> illuminate people outside the gate at night (so we can see them on the
>>>>>> camera) and a 12v power adaptor for the camera.  There is also a 12v
>>>>>> adaptor that goes nowhere, for the hard drive that used to be there
>>>>>> and is
>>>>>> gone now.  The DOOR button wiring and buzzer wiring is all put away
>>>>>> like it
>>>>>> was before Noisebridge arrived.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there anyway we can simplify what we already have without causing
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> problems to your future plans?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is not about my plans.  Noisebridge is a collective activity and
>>>>>> we
>>>>>> should discuss things together.  Anyone interested in working on
>>>>>> infrastructure should communicate with other people who are
>>>>>> interested for
>>>>>> maximum effect.  I can try to answer any questions if they are asked
>>>>>> of me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Asked what? I know I'm probably being stupid, but after all these
>>>>>> months
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's where i initially suggested it:
>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/****pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/****<https://www.noisebridge.net/**pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/**>
>>>>>> 2013-January/034216.html<https**://www.noisebridge.net/**
>>>>>> pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/**2013-January/034216.html<https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2013-January/034216.html>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here are some people who liked it:
>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/****pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/****<https://www.noisebridge.net/**pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/**>
>>>>>> 2013-January/034217.html<https**://www.noisebridge.net/**
>>>>>> pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/**2013-January/034217.html<https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2013-January/034217.html>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/****pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/****<https://www.noisebridge.net/**pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/**>
>>>>>> 2013-January/034221.html<https**://www.noisebridge.net/**
>>>>>> pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/**2013-January/034221.html<https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2013-January/034221.html>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> here's what YOU said about it on 17 January of this year:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/****pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/****<https://www.noisebridge.net/**pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/**>
>>>>>> 2013-January/034236.html<https**://www.noisebridge.net/**
>>>>>> pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/**2013-January/034236.html<https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2013-January/034236.html>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also announced it at a meeting, and everyone thought it was great:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/****wiki/Meeting_Notes_2013_02_19<https://www.noisebridge.net/**wiki/Meeting_Notes_2013_02_19>
>>>>>> <**https://www.noisebridge.net/**wiki/Meeting_Notes_2013_02_19<https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Meeting_Notes_2013_02_19>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm sure not entirely sure what the plan is. I *think* it's this:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1) Door code to get in. Door code available to... who? Not sure.
>>>>>>> People
>>>>>>> who mail doorcodes at noisebridge.net (not a real email address)?
>>>>>>> People
>>>>>>> who come to Meeting? Probably the latter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have been providing codes to people who email me and tell me enough
>>>>>> about themselves that I think they belong at noisebridge.  You can do
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> same.  Someone should create the email address doorcodes at noisebridgeso
>>>>>> that myself and others with the ability to add codes can share the
>>>>>> labor of
>>>>>> giving people codes.  I don't want a million people emailing me at my
>>>>>> private email address for codes.  We should share the work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But yes, some infrastructure for code distribution would be
>>>>>> appropriate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do NOT think we should make it so that anyone with a code can just
>>>>>> create more codes.  That is not reasonable.  We need to have a flow of
>>>>>> codes out from the people who help make noisebridge happen, and
>>>>>> maintain
>>>>>> control of that flow of access.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2) Buzzer works to let people in, but you have to either go and press
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the DOOR button or... type a code? Typing a code means that you've
>>>>>>> agreed to greet people?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know what you mean my buzzer.  There is a "doorbell" which
>>>>>> makes
>>>>>> an annoying noise.  I want to adjust it so that when it is rung, a
>>>>>> light
>>>>>> begins blinking inside the space (near the door) and the "doorbell"
>>>>>> sound
>>>>>> is muted to a lower volume when pressed, until either the electric
>>>>>> latch
>>>>>> opens the door or a few minutes expire.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If someone uses their code to open the door for someone else I presume
>>>>>> they will make sure the person they let in belongs at noisebridge.  At
>>>>>> least more so than with the current setup where anyone can just push
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> door button.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3) Keys still work. DOOR button will still work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> the keys have always worked and will continue to work.  The DOOR
>>>>>> button
>>>>>> has been disabled in favour of using codes, either at the keypad near
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> intercom or on ones Android app, or from a webpage on ones' PC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does that sound right? Are there extra stages in the future?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> the flamethrowers are being cobbled together but we need bigger
>>>>>> solenoid
>>>>>> valves, the ones we have keep getting stuck open.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Incidentally, I asked Jake if I could give door codes to everyone who
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> subscribing to Pay Noisebridge. He said yes -- I think it's a good
>>>>>>> idea. Do
>>>>>>> other people think that's a good idea?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that if people can operate email and have made a commitment to
>>>>>> support noisebridge to the tune of $10 per month they should
>>>>>> definitely be
>>>>>> able to have a code.  Those people are likely capable of a reasonable
>>>>>> conversation and are presumably willing to come to a meeting to
>>>>>> discuss
>>>>>> things if their behavior ever descends toward sleeping in the space or
>>>>>> other unpleasantries.  It's a low bar i'm setting, but it's better
>>>>>> than
>>>>>> propping the door open, which is effectively what we've been doing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yeah, but the problem is that lots of people like coming to visit us.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Almost none of them are bad people. The bad people will (and have)
>>>>>>> worked
>>>>>>> out ways of getting keys or codes, or whatever.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think it's great that people come to visit.  I look forward to the
>>>>>> day
>>>>>> when MORE NOISEBRIDGE PEOPLE hang out at noisebridge, having a good
>>>>>> time,
>>>>>> rather than being repelled by its occupation by people from "the
>>>>>> street".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When MORE NOISEBRIDGE PEOPLE hang out at noisebridge, visitors
>>>>>> ringing the
>>>>>> doorbell will NOT be ignored but instead NOISEBRIDGE PEOPLE will rush
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> the camera and intercom to see who is there, and welcome them in with
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> proper introduction.  If whoever is there can't be bothered to say
>>>>>> hello
>>>>>> through the intercom, or is recognized by one of the several
>>>>>> NOISEBRIDGE
>>>>>> PEOPLE as a sleeper or stealer or just known to be not interesting
>>>>>> enough
>>>>>> to buzz in, those people will talk about it and perhaps tell the
>>>>>> person
>>>>>> that Noisebridge isn't here right now so they can't come in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The accepted cultural fix for this is to encourage people to greet and
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> check out people. But I agree that locking new people out is not a
>>>>>>> great
>>>>>>> side-effect of trying to encourage this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> If there is nobody at noisebridge with a code willing to let new
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> in, or willing to go down the steps to let people in, then it's not a
>>>>>> good
>>>>>> time for those people to get a good impression of noisebridge, don't
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> agree?  I would rather they fail to enter at 2am on a friday night and
>>>>>> instead come back saturday afternoon when hackers are up and hanging
>>>>>> out
>>>>>> and eager to give them a tour.  Also if those people get on IRC
>>>>>> someone can
>>>>>> remotely let them in if they have a code.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the fact is, our extreme open-door policy has allowed too many people
>>>>>> whose habits and presence discourages our core membership demographic
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> wanting to be at noisebridge.  That is a problem worth solving.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 5. There is a switch on the intercom to turn off the doorbell, if it
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> is annoying you and you don't feel like answering the door.  Please
>>>>>>>> turn it back on when you leave.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think anyone understands all of those switches. I don't.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> there is only one switch and it is very clearly labeled.  In english!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 6. I will be adding an automatic mute for the doorbell, which turns
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> on a blinking light over the door and reduces the volume of the
>>>>>>>> doorbell until someone buzzes the door or a few minutes pass.  Or
>>>>>>>> you could do it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why is this a good idea? This just seems to be stopping people who
>>>>>>> buzz
>>>>>>> from coming in, based on how grumpy at inconveniences people are
>>>>>>> inside.
>>>>>>> We should maximise the convienience for new people *and* for people
>>>>>>> inside. Punishing either of these people to handle bad people seems
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> be the wrong incentive system.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the people in the space are not letting people in who are outside,
>>>>>> either because they don't have a code or because they are grumpy, or
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> likely because it's 2AM and they don't want anyone without a code
>>>>>> coming
>>>>>> in, it's better to soften the sound of the doorbell and supplement it
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> a gently blinking reminder light for a few minutes don't you think?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Otherwise people in the space are more likely to flip the DOORBELL
>>>>>> SILENT
>>>>>> switch (which I did not install but i did label) and forget to flip it
>>>>>> back.  I think gentle softening of the doorbell for a few minutes
>>>>>> when it's
>>>>>> clearly being ignored is a good idea.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm pretty sure that a large number of what problems we have come from
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> regular or second-time visitors, not newcomers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree that people who abuse noisebridge have usually been there a
>>>>>> few
>>>>>> times before, but I also think that those people tend to NOT have a
>>>>>> code.
>>>>>> And part of the reason they don't have a code is because if they
>>>>>> tried to
>>>>>> get one, which they wouldn't bother trying, they would be refused.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In short, if someone is in the building they are already our
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (Noisebridge's) responsibility.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I follow the mailing list, and I still don't really understand this
>>>>>>> either. What are the scenarios where someone gets buzzed in, but we
>>>>>>> don't let them in through the door, thus causing them to wander the
>>>>>>> building, terrifying the residents? Under what situations would this
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> already happen, but would be fixed by any of the variants of the
>>>>>>> system
>>>>>>> you're proposing?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have already written too many times the same post about how bad it
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> be if you tried to put a lock at the top of the steps.  By the time
>>>>>> someone
>>>>>> ascends the steps and is standing on the other side of the door
>>>>>> looking at
>>>>>> you, if you refuse to let them in you're going to just piss them off
>>>>>> until
>>>>>> the next person coming up the stairs has to get in, and then they
>>>>>> assault
>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or they will just learn to take up the elevator instead, further
>>>>>> wearing
>>>>>> away the last scraps of rust holding that thing together.  I honestly
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> this issue is so absurd and dead that I don't want to even address it
>>>>>> anymore and I would almost rather see what happens if people try it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If people are not welcome inside noisebridge, the proper place to lock
>>>>>> them out is at the sidewalk.  I am not going to argue this point
>>>>>> anymore.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know you talk a lot about your system, Jake, but I *really* don't
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> understand it. Everytime you explain it to me, I just have more
>>>>>>> questions. And I know it's annoying for you, but I don't think I'm
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> only one, if only because you regularly have to write emails like
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> to people who don't get what's going on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't have a system.  Noisebridge has a system, with various parts.
>>>>>> Most
>>>>>> of it is well documented.  I know about much of it.  If you have a
>>>>>> particular question for me just ask it instead of writing a big
>>>>>> paragraph
>>>>>> accusing me of being a secret holder.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would absolutely love you to just write out the whole thing, finally
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and once and for all, and let everyone critique and improve the plan.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know what you want me to write out.  2169 mission has a metal
>>>>>> gate
>>>>>> keeping people out from the street.  You can open it with a key, or a
>>>>>> BART
>>>>>> card, or you can activate an electrical solenoid by triggering a
>>>>>> computer
>>>>>> called minotaur.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> you can cause minotaur to open the gate either by typing a valid code
>>>>>> into
>>>>>> the payphone outside the gate, or into a keypad upstairs above the
>>>>>> intercom.  Or you can put a code into the android app.  Or there's a
>>>>>> webpage i think.  There is a DOOR button but it apparently doesn't
>>>>>> work
>>>>>> anymore, which I think is good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i don't understand why you're suddenly acting like noisebridge
>>>>>> operates on
>>>>>> a deterministic systemized rulemaking process and you're demanding
>>>>>> that I
>>>>>> explain to you how it works.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -jake
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  ______________________________**_________________
>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.**noisebridge.net<Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>
>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/**mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-**discuss<https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss>
>>>>>
>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.**noisebridge.net<Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>
>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/**mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-**discuss<https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> *~the quieter you become, the more you are able to hear...*
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> -Sean Kolk
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>
>>
>


-- 
-Sean Kolk
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