[Noisebridge-discuss] happy feminist film night: Hayao Miyazaki?

[macegr]

Thanks for taking the time to write all of this. I think it does help me understand your point of view better, but ("of course," you think, rolling your eyes) I still have a couple problems with some of the details. Some notes included inline below:

On Jul 28, 2013, at 10:18 AM, hep <dis at gruntle.org> wrote:

> This guy has derailed a conversation, thrown down an oppressed-class members words about their own movement, argued that one definition of feminism has more merit than others, used the tone argument to disregard an oppressed-class members feelings and reactions about defending their own movement, and is denying the core foundations of that oppressed class movement because he is personally offended that he may be lumped into it. guess what buddy, you are. all men are. because you benefit from the system as is, even if you personally do not like it or agree with it. actual male feminist allies understand this. if you don't and if you want to argue about it, you aren't doing feminism allyship correctly fyi. 

I still don't see how I was the one to derail the conversation, since the reprimand you re-quoted below was in response to a friendly, inclusive invitation.

> there is no "badge of honor" where a man isn't part of the patriarchy. much like one can't use having black friends or peers to nullify one's benefits of white supremacy in the united states if one has white passing privilege. understanding this and accepting this is the first step towards helping to dismantle this system. the patriarchy isn't some kind of sentient thing that only rewards those dick men who want to support it. it benefits all men in silent ways because it is a word to describe the kind of society we live in, and the preferred class that it rewards above others. it's in a man never having to hear and internalize "why don't you get raped!" if he loses a video game. it's in never being worried about being alone on a street at night that as a man you might be the target of rape. it's in not having to be uncomfortably aware and trying to silently read the intentions of every man you are ever alone with for any reason. it's in not being told to watch what you are wearing or where you are going to socialize at night. it's in not wondering if you were passed over for a promotion because you are female. it's in knowing that you are probably being paid commensurate with your peers, not earning cents to the dollar for the employees of the opposite sex in your company. it's in not wondering whether you should change your name to a more masculine sounding name because you aren't getting callbacks in a male dominated field. etc, etc, etc.  

Also, in an earlier message I myself brought up the fact that men can be part of the patriarchy without knowing it. And maybe this is the source of the disconnect...I don't think that someone receiving these benefits means that they should automatically be treated as part of the machine that takes them from women and distributes them to men. At least I don't see how that could have any positive effect.

> and this is why a LOT of feminists believe that the word "feminist" only applies to females. at most, men can be feminist allies. which, you know, lupita said in her very first email on this subject. but you know, the words of a girl about their own movement are SO HARD to read, which I am sure is the reason that guy missed it. And since he brought up gay allies, that is EXACTLY it isn't it? You don't call yourself LGBTQ if you are just an ally right? You call yourself a gay ally, or gay-rights ally, or LGBTQ ally. Why does he have such a strong reaction to labeling himself an ally for another movement he can truly never be a part of? Why does he react with such typical shaming and argument nullifying tactics to someone who is pointing out that he does not belong in that space? The real questions here are why does he feel compelled to speak over someone speaking about their movement, and infer that they are both doing it wrong and that he has more of a right to claim that space and speak on that topic? 

I think your analysis of my LGBTQ analogy is flawed. Of course a straight gay rights supporter wouldn't call themselves gay...if that was the logic I was using, then I would be demanding that men be allowed to call themselves female if they agree with feminism. Additionally, there are many gay people who actively work against gay rights, and there are many women who actively work against feminists. And there are many in both groups who simply aren't worried about the status quo and do nothing. Being gay or female is something that you are; supporting gay rights or feminism is something that you believe and do.

That's why I don't think it's 100% impossible for a man to be a feminist. It would probably take a huge amount of work and sacrifice to gain the necessary level of understanding, but ultimately we're all software running on mostly-identical meat robots. A man isn't going to wake up one morning, yawn, and think it might be nice to be a feminist, then suddenly become one. But absolutes applied to ideas make me uncomfortable; they've gotten us humans into trouble more than once.

> -hep
> 
> the below post is re-quoted because apparently he has issues with reading comprehension: 
> 
> 
> 
> Lupita Berries garyberries at gmail.com via gruntle.org 
> 5:49 PM (16 hours ago)
> 
> 
> 
> to Romy, noisebridge-di.
> 
> > I would really prefer if you don't use the term feminist to describe men. Feminism is a movement for the liberation of women, 
> > for women, and by women. Men cannot be feminists, and it shouldn't be encourage that the oppressor class hijack the 
> > movement of an oppressed class. 
> 
> 
> > Men at most can be feminist allies, but not feminists. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 10:48 PM, Curtis Gagliardi <gagliardi.curtis at gmail.com> wrote:
> Do people actually think that everyone they disagree with is trolling them?  Do you think macegr is pretending to have a different definition of feminism than Lupita or pretending to be sensitive about being a member of the oppressing class just to annoy you guys? 
> 
> 
> -- 
> hep
> hepic photography || www.hepic.net
>     dis at gruntle.org || 415 867 9472 
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