[Noisebridge-discuss] happy feminist film night: Hayao Miyazaki?

[Lupita Berries]

I like stressing how women are the experts when it comes to the experience
of women. Even the most conservative anti-feminist woman understands the
experiences of women better than the most well-read pro-feminist man, we
just differ on our responses to the patriarchy. Mainly anti-feminist women
want to make a bargain with the patriarchy in hopes they will get
protection. Feminist women on the other hand want to strive for an ideal
society, not choose between two shitty choices.

Men don't get cookies or rewards for supporting feminists. Their only
reward is being a decent human being. That should be enough.
So it doesn't matter if a man does more pro-woman stuff than an
anti-feminist woman. He still will never be able to understand the
experience of womanhood. His place is to support feminists, not to tell
them how to prioritize things or what to do. He can't possibly have the
knowledge, and plus, the movement isn't for him, it is for women.

Stop trying to make things about you. Don't be a brat that throws a fit
because a girl tells you "no". You don't know everything, and that's fine.
Just accept it and move on. Focus more on helping women then bringing
attention to yourself. Listen if you actually want to learn something.

Also please don't take my 'tone' as being hostile. I'm merely being direct,
because I feel like we are adults here, and no one needs their ego to be
babied. And if you do, then this isn't a conversation you should be having.
You need to first work on your own issues before asking other people to.



On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 3:18 PM, rachel lyra hospodar
<rachelyra at gmail.com>wrote:

> Adrian replied privately:
>
> >I completely agree with your "are you willing to modify your position"
> outlook. But does this also mean you're willing to modify your own ideals,
> morals and opinions?
>
> (I am re-forwarding to list, in the hopes of keeping public discussion
> public. I'm not in this discussion to get feminist troll jollies, or to do
> pro bono one-on-one lessons in feminist thought. I'm seeking to have public
> culturehacking discussions about issues that are clearly important to many
> members of the NB community.)
>
> Your question seems to me to presuppose a parity in this discussion - ie,
> that in a discussion about feminism, the opinions of all should be weighted
> equally.
>
> I believe that in a discussion about feminist goals, women are the de
> facto experts. I do not expect blind abasement to my opinions in all
> matters. I do expect that my opinion of [*what women ought to do* in order
> to try and be less oppressed] is more valid than that of a not-woman.
>
> I further often hear similar sentiments to this email that to me, overall,
> sound like 'why do *you* get to have prime number one opinion?! Unfair!'
> Which seems to indicate a belief that I would hold (or have held) the same
> stance WRT some other discussion that is not supposed to be centered on
> what I think and feel. I change my beliefs all the time, based on evidence
> I am constantly gathering from the world around me. I listen really well to
> the opinions of others, actually. After all, part of how they train you to
> be a woman in this society is to make sure you listen more and speak less.
> We are experts at hearing how your opinions center in your self. We are the
> half of society that is trained to center in others, to listen, support,
> and learn passively. We must undo that training and if you want to help
> then google around 'how to be a good ally'. I promise it starts and ends
> with listening, and has f*ckall to do with you worrying about my personal
> growth. Worry about your own.
>
> I only started learning the language of feminism recently, to describe
> patterns I have empirically observed in a way that is more systematized,
> less easily dismissed. Ultimately, feminism is centered on women, what they
> think, feel, and want. It's not about anything except the collaborative
> opinion of a certain group of people.
>
> Which seems to be the main sticking point for lots of folks.
>
> I invite you to consider that this novel feeling is in fact a reversal of
> an invisible, insidious, and very strong status quo.
>
> R.
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Adrian Chadd" <adrian.chadd at gmail.com>
> Date: Jul 29, 2013 2:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] happy feminist film night: Hayao
> Miyazaki?
> To: "rachel lyra hospodar" <rachelyra at gmail.com>
>
> (Privately, as I don't want to incite more rioting/trolling..)
>
> On 29 July 2013 14:17, rachel lyra hospodar <rachelyra at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Thanks for sane reply!
>
> As an observer, I'm glad to see a pair of sane replies.
>
> > I agree with you, now, about your overt wording and language; especially
> in
> > the quoted passage. perhaps it was the initial tone-setting that did it
> to
> > me, or my own prejudice against you.
> >
> > I will say that in my ideal world, your opinion would come surrounded
> with
> > more questions from you about the opinions of others, indicating an
> openness
> > to new ideas & the modification of your position.  Also, I find that any
> > arguments about how someone was treated are not neutral, and that
> generally
> > that is where the whole thing starts to happen where online arguments
> skew
> > out of proportion. I find that an intersectional analysis is incredibly
> > helpful in finding where, and how, discussions like this go awry.
>
> This begs a question, if only to see what it's like from your perspective.
>
> I completely agree with your "are you willing to modify your position"
> outlook. But does this also mean you're willing to modify your own
> ideals, morals and opinions? Which ones would you hold steadfastly to,
> even in the face of evidence?
>
> I tend to get some very uncomfortable silences when I ask people this
> as they tend to assume I'm trolling rather than seeing if they're
> truly as open to adapting to a changing world and accepting their own
> shortcomings as they expect others to be. Hence, I'm curious.
>
> Thanks!
>
> -adrian
> On Jul 29, 2013 2:29 PM, "Adrian Chadd" <adrian.chadd at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> (Privately, as I don't want to incite more rioting/trolling..)
>>
>> On 29 July 2013 14:17, rachel lyra hospodar <rachelyra at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Thanks for sane reply!
>>
>> As an observer, I'm glad to see a pair of sane replies.
>>
>>
>> > I agree with you, now, about your overt wording and language;
>> especially in
>> > the quoted passage. perhaps it was the initial tone-setting that did it
>> to
>> > me, or my own prejudice against you.
>> >
>> > I will say that in my ideal world, your opinion would come surrounded
>> with
>> > more questions from you about the opinions of others, indicating an
>> openness
>> > to new ideas & the modification of your position.  Also, I find that any
>> > arguments about how someone was treated are not neutral, and that
>> generally
>> > that is where the whole thing starts to happen where online arguments
>> skew
>> > out of proportion. I find that an intersectional analysis is incredibly
>> > helpful in finding where, and how, discussions like this go awry.
>>
>> This begs a question, if only to see what it's like from your perspective.
>>
>> I completely agree with your "are you willing to modify your position"
>> outlook. But does this also mean you're willing to modify your own
>> ideals, morals and opinions? Which ones would you hold steadfastly to,
>> even in the face of evidence?
>>
>> I tend to get some very uncomfortable silences when I ask people this
>> as they tend to assume I'm trolling rather than seeing if they're
>> truly as open to adapting to a changing world and accepting their own
>> shortcomings as they expect others to be. Hence, I'm curious.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>>
>> -adrian
>>
>
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>
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