[Noisebridge-discuss] Red asked to leave

LinkReincarnate linkreincarnate at gmail.com
Mon Jun 24 21:29:35 UTC 2013

There is so much that I have not responded to until now that I am sure
I am going to miss a lot.  I am going to keep an irony tally for this

You seem to be trying your hardest to make this personal. Most of this
argument is you misinterpreting/misstating my stance and then slinging
mud at me personally while railing against a series of straw man
arguments.  I will get into the other stuff but first I have to take
you to task for being a dick to my wife.

did you
seriously just come here as your husband's get out of racism free card

i do not really understand what the point of your email was. as far as i
can see, your husband is trying to use you and his stepfather as his
minority token to excuse his abhorrant behavior.

Nice to know that you only think of women in the context of their
relationship to men and not as free thinking individuals.  Bonus
points for literally objectifying her. Twice. (Irony +2)

She is her own person. I asked her not to post in this discussion but
keep on thinking that I am somehow manipulating her from the shadows.

 Remember when I said everyone needs to examine their actions and
motivations not just one group and you falsely equated it to victim
blaming?  Saying that people should examine their own motivations and
biases is not victim blaming. It is the very thing you are (in your
own ham fisted and misguided way) trying to convince me (even though I
already know) that I should do.(irony +1)  But for some reason you
seem to think checking yourself for privilege should only apply to
other people.   We all belong to multiple overlapping groupings each
with it's own set of privileges. You are ignoring your own privileged
actions while screaming that I am lording my privilege over you.

 and try to defend his racist ideas that minorities should just get the fuck
over their fears for their well-being in regards to the white nationalist

You may not have seen this already so i'll repost it here. It
originally came from the Tattoos vs. behavior thread.

... I was never blaming the victim or asking people to approach this
person directly. The idea that the only option for a person in a group
targeted by white supremacists are to leave or "get over it" is false
choice and never one that I put forward....

You have been fighting shadows most of this debate. This alone makes
most of the rest of your post irrelevant but I have a few more things
to say.

...excuse his abhorrant behavior...

It's abhorrent behavior when people disagree with your faulty
assumptions on an internet thread?  Exaggerate much?

... people who use those relationships
as an "out" to excuse racist behavior...

...i do not really understand what the point of your email was. as far as i
can see, your husband is trying to use you and his stepfather as his
minority token to excuse his abhorrant behavior...

I didn't bring up any of my relationships and I don't think of Papa
Joe in that way. Frankly I didn't want to even mention my upbringing
because of all the implications and types of privilege that it exposes
me to. Stuff like the above post. What you wrote here disgusts me. Way
to disparage and minimize my relationships with my parental figures
into a trump card in an internet argument. I would totally do that
because my relationships with parental figures is fleeting and shallow
because we aren't biologically related right? FUCK YOU WITH YOUR
MASSIVE PRIVILEGED IGNORANCE. She brought it up because he is one of
the persons who taught me about my white privilege. The privilege you
claimed I was unaware of.  OF FUCKING COURSE knowing a black person
doesn't make you not a racist, but did you stop to think that if a
black person was raising a white person they might over the course of
their lifetime, breach the fucking subject?  The point was that I did
not grow up in the protective bubble that keeps most white people
unaware of their privilege.  Elizabeth was not defending a racist
viewpoint she was debunking your idiotic claims about my knowledge and
insulting attempts to educate me.

Oh look it's you complaining about people trying to educate you as to
what racism is.

...(this being one of them btw.
the idea that a minority needs to be "told" what racism is, and informed
that their experiences suffering racism aren't valid because they don't fit
a bunch of white guys' perceptions of what racism is...

And here is the tail end of an entire post dedicated to you doing just
that to me as a form of snark.


or anyone who wants to actually learn about this issue instead of just
brushing off the opinions of what the people living through it feel about
their own situations and experiences...

(Also Irony +1)

...People here are the
REAL victims of this bullshit. I grew up with stories of how my dad...

You want to talk about privilege lets talk.  I grew up without parents
so this already sounds like privileged whining to me. You try to claim
the moral high ground by telling me what "REAL" victims look like.
(irony +1)

I was beat up in high school almost every week
for being half latina.

 You think you had it bad? I was the only "cracker whiteboy" for
miles. I lived with a black foster family and there were no other
white kids at my middle school. You think I got a firsthand lesson on
what it is like when an entire community turns against you because you
look different? You had a fucking walk in the park compared to me
buddy. I was jumped (sometimes upwards of 15 people) on the way to
school, On the bus.  At school. On the bus home. On the way home from
school. And whenever the local gangs wanted something to do or someone
to exert their angst on.  I got jumped by the whole neighborhood every
single day to the point that department of family and children's
services stepped in and removed me from the foster family I loved for
my survival. The next time you want to "educate" me on "real" racism
try being dragged around the neighborhood while people take turns
kicking and punching you until you can't see from the blood running
into your eyes and see if that giver you some fucking perspective.

Once again you do not have a monopoly on suffering.  Not even racist
motivated suffering.

Don't be one of those racists that say you can't be racist to white
people.  My scars beg to differ.

minorities aren't a
monolith. we don't vote at the international minority movement on who we do
and don't deem racist. just because you don't see anything wrong with his
behavior doesn't mean that it is acceptable.

You seem to be the only one here who can't get a grip on this.  As
evidenced by your response to my wife. You seem incapable of
understanding why she would disagree with you and equate her
difference in opinion to racism. (irony +1)

Lets break this down though so you will have no excuse to ignore my
statements and continue fighting your strawmen. I understand white
privilege. Despite your beliefs to the contrary I was never
discounting it.  I just happen to think that my right to control my
own body is more important than my right to feel safe. You seem to
think that the right to feel safe should trump someone else's right to
control their own body. You also would do this without any discussion
of the trade off and decry any who disagree with you (or even disagree
that we should ban this person without discussion) as a neo-nazi
supporting racist themselves. Despite the fact that the person we are
talking about is not themselves a racist.  Why do you feel that
trading safety for freedom is a good idea?   If the tables were turned
and someone was telling you what to do with your body because of their
feelings would you resent them? Would you support pants sagging bans
too because sagging your pants is a choice not heritage?  What about
gang attire? Would you ban that?

i still don't understand how if he was "forced" to get them why he
wouldn't understand that those things will make certain people feel
extremely unsafe for their physical and mental well-being?

You don't see how he might not want to go through the entire
body-modification-to-fit-with-a-group scenario again given the blowback the
first time caused? Are you incapable of even imagining an alternate
scenario to 'he doesn't want to cover himself because he's racist and
believes it"

Lets explore a few hypothetical scenarios together then. Maybe he's sick of
people telling him what to do with his body? Maybe the tattoos offer him
the ability easily identify closet racists and publicly decry them. Maybe
he wants a reminder of his past mistakes? Maybe he was just fucking
overheating and didn't feel like wearing a head covering and long sleeves?
Maybe it was a misguided attempt to cause people to think about the topic
of racism. Who knows why. You seem to think you know why though without any
evidence whatsoever to back up your assumption. That is the crux of this
whole argument though isn't it.

People are really shitty at predicting the internal motivations of other
people. If you are thinking about why a person is acting the way they are
acting without evidence to inform that prediction chances are you are
already wrong. Even when you use evidence but you don't have all of it you
are still likely wrong.

The difference between you and me is if I saw evidence counter to my model
of this person's motivations, I would change my model and act accordingly.
You on the other hand ignore all evidence that your assumptions about his
internal motivations are wrong and think that people who see this
disconnect are racist. If you think that is not the case then I ask you
this. Hypothetically, what evidence (if any) would it take to convince you
that this person was not a racist?

I will break my rule about blanket statements this one time and get to the
point of the entire debate (from my perspective anyway) :


You say he's a racist because he doesn't cover up his tattoos but the only
support for that idea is your assumptions about his motivations for not
covering the tattoos. Assuming that he doesn't cover his tattoos because he
is racist begging the question


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