[Noisebridge-discuss] Red asked to leave

Wed Jun 26 00:42:39 UTC 2013

Link and Elizabeth have both already spoken very well for themselves.
However, as a close friend of the two of them, and a long-time Noisebridge
fan, I do want to chime in that the idea of labeling Link racist and Liz
unaware is pretty absurd to me - though hardly as absurd as the fact that
they're being labeled so for defending the basic dignity of another human
being, as well as each other. Apart from that, I think Link is spot on with
regards to  the external interpretations of other people's internal mind
state and the extrapolation of behavioral scenarios based on said
interpretations.

Do not believe everything you think other people think.

If you have not already had the opportunity to meet these awesome folks in
real life, I strongly suggest that you arrange to do so - they are both
highly talented, incredibly open-minded, kind-hearted and amazing people.

/Rikke

On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 5:29 PM, LinkReincarnate
<linkreincarnate at gmail.com>wrote:

> There is so much that I have not responded to until now that I am sure I am going to miss a lot.  I am going to keep an irony tally for this response.
>
>  You seem to be trying your hardest to make this personal. Most of this argument is you misinterpreting/misstating my stance and then slinging mud at me personally while railing against a series of straw man arguments.  I will get into the other stuff but first I have to take you to task for being a dick to my wife.
>
>  did you
> seriously just come here as your husband's get out of racism free card
>
> i do not really understand what the point of your email was. as far as i
> can see, your husband is trying to use you and his stepfather as his
> minority token to excuse his abhorrant behavior.
>
>
> Nice to know that you only think of women in the context of their relationship to men and not as free thinking individuals.  Bonus points for literally objectifying her. Twice. (Irony +2)
>
> She is her own person. I asked her not to post in this discussion but keep on thinking that I am somehow manipulating her from the shadows.
>
>  Remember when I said everyone needs to examine their actions and motivations not just one group and you falsely equated it to victim blaming?  Saying that people should examine their own motivations and biases is not victim blaming. It is the very thing you are (in your own ham fisted and misguided way) trying to convince me (even though I already know) that I should do.(irony +1)  But for some reason you seem to think checking yourself for privilege should only apply to other people.   We all belong to multiple overlapping groupings each with it's own set of privileges. You are ignoring your own privileged actions while screaming that I am lording my privilege over you.  (irony+1)
>
>   and try to defend his racist ideas that minorities should just get the fuck
> over their fears for their well-being in regards to the white nationalist
> movement?
>
> You may not have seen this already so i'll repost it here. It originally came from the Tattoos vs. behavior thread.
>
> ... I was never blaming the victim or asking people to approach this person directly. The idea that the only option for a person in a group targeted by white supremacists are to leave or "get over it" is false choice and never one that I put forward....
>
>  You have been fighting shadows most of this debate. This alone makes most of the rest of your post irrelevant but I have a few more things to say.
>
> ...excuse his abhorrant behavior...
>
> It's abhorrent behavior when people disagree with your faulty assumptions on an internet thread?  Exaggerate much?
>
>
> ... people who use those relationships
> as an "out" to excuse racist behavior...
>
>
> ...i do not really understand what the point of your email was. as far as i
> can see, your husband is trying to use you and his stepfather as his
> minority token to excuse his abhorrant behavior...
>
>
> I didn't bring up any of my relationships and I don't think of Papa Joe in that way. Frankly I didn't want to even mention my upbringing because of all the implications and types of privilege that it exposes me to. Stuff like the above post. What you wrote here disgusts me. Way to disparage and minimize my relationships with my parental figures into a trump card in an internet argument. I would totally do that because my relationships with parental figures is fleeting and shallow because we aren't biologically related right? FUCK YOU WITH YOUR MASSIVE PRIVILEGED IGNORANCE. She brought it up because he is one of the persons who taught me about my white privilege. The privilege you claimed I was unaware of.  OF FUCKING COURSE knowing a black person doesn't make you not a racist, but did you stop to think that if a black person was raising a white person they might over the course of their lifetime, breach the fucking subject?  The point was that I did not grow up in the protective bubble that keeps most white people unaware of their privilege.  Elizabeth was not defending a racist viewpoint she was debunking your idiotic claims about my knowledge and insulting attempts to educate me.
>
>
> Oh look it's you complaining about people trying to educate you as to what racism is.
>
> ...(this being one of them btw.
> the idea that a minority needs to be "told" what racism is, and informed
> that their experiences suffering racism aren't valid because they don't fit
> a bunch of white guys' perceptions of what racism is...
>
>
> And here is the tail end of an entire post dedicated to you doing just that to me as a form of snark.
>
> ...
>
> or anyone who wants to actually learn about this issue instead of just
> brushing off the opinions of what the people living through it feel about
> their own situations and experiences...
>
> (Also Irony +1)
>
>
> ...People here are the
> REAL victims of this bullshit. I grew up with stories of how my dad...
>
> You want to talk about privilege lets talk.  I grew up without parents so this already sounds like privileged whining to me. You try to claim the moral high ground by telling me what "REAL" victims look like.  (irony +1)
>
>  I was beat up in high school almost every week
> for being half latina.
>
>  You think you had it bad? I was the only "cracker whiteboy" for miles. I lived with a black foster family and there were no other white kids at my middle school. You think I got a firsthand lesson on what it is like when an entire community turns against you because you look different? You had a fucking walk in the park compared to me buddy. I was jumped (sometimes upwards of 15 people) on the way to school, On the bus.  At school. On the bus home. On the way home from school. And whenever the local gangs wanted something to do or someone to exert their angst on.  I got jumped by the whole neighborhood every single day to the point that department of family and children's services stepped in and removed me from the foster family I loved for my survival. The next time you want to "educate" me on "real" racism try being dragged around the neighborhood while people take turns kicking and punching you until you can't see from the blood running into your eyes and see if that giver you some fucking perspective.
>
>
> Once again you do not have a monopoly on suffering.  Not even racist motivated suffering.
>
> Don't be one of those racists that say you can't be racist to white people.  My scars beg to differ.
>
>
> minorities aren't a
> monolith. we don't vote at the international minority movement on who we do
> and don't deem racist. just because you don't see anything wrong with his
> behavior doesn't mean that it is acceptable.
>
>
> You seem to be the only one here who can't get a grip on this.  As evidenced by your response to my wife. You seem incapable of understanding why she would disagree with you and equate her difference in opinion to racism. (irony +1)
>
>
> Lets break this down though so you will have no excuse to ignore my statements and continue fighting your strawmen. I understand white privilege. Despite your beliefs to the contrary I was never discounting it.  I just happen to think that my right to control my own body is more important than my right to feel safe. You seem to think that the right to feel safe should trump someone else's right to control their own body. You also would do this without any discussion of the trade off and decry any who disagree with you (or even disagree that we should ban this person without discussion) as a neo-nazi supporting racist themselves. Despite the fact that the person we are talking about is not themselves a racist.  Why do you feel that trading safety for freedom is a good idea?   If the tables were turned and someone was telling you what to do with your body because of their feelings would you resent them? Would you support pants sagging bans too because sagging your pants is a choice not heritage?  What about gang attire? Would you ban that?
>
> i still don't understand how if he was "forced" to get them why he wouldn't understand that those things will make certain people feel extremely unsafe for their physical and mental well-being?
>
> You don't see how he might not want to go through the entire
> body-modification-to-fit-with-a-group scenario again given the blowback the
> first time caused? Are you incapable of even imagining an alternate
> scenario to 'he doesn't want to cover himself because he's racist and
> believes it"
>
> Lets explore a few hypothetical scenarios together then. Maybe he's sick
> of people telling him what to do with his body? Maybe the tattoos offer him
> the ability easily identify closet racists and publicly decry them. Maybe
> he wants a reminder of his past mistakes? Maybe he was just fucking
> overheating and didn't feel like wearing a head covering and long sleeves?
> Maybe it was a misguided attempt to cause people to think about the topic
> of racism. Who knows why. You seem to think you know why though without any
> evidence whatsoever to back up your assumption. That is the crux of this
> whole argument though isn't it.
>
> People are really shitty at predicting the internal motivations of other
> people. If you are thinking about why a person is acting the way they are
> acting without evidence to inform that prediction chances are you are
> already wrong. Even when you use evidence but you don't have all of it you
> are still likely wrong.
>
> The difference between you and me is if I saw evidence counter to my
> model of this person's motivations, I would change my model and act
> accordingly. You on the other hand ignore all evidence that your
> assumptions about his internal motivations are wrong and think that people
> who see this disconnect are racist. If you think that is not the case then
> I ask you this. Hypothetically, what evidence (if any) would it take to
> convince you that this person was not a racist?
>
>
> I will break my rule about blanket statements this one time and get to the
> point of the entire debate (from my perspective anyway) :
>
> ANY STATEMENT ABOUT THE MOTIVATIONS OF ANOTHER PERSON CAN ONLY EVER BE A
> THEORY AND WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE IS A WEAK THEORY.
>
> You say he's a racist because he doesn't cover up his tattoos but the only
> support for that idea is your assumptions about his motivations for not
> covering the tattoos. Assuming that he doesn't cover his tattoos because he
> is racist begging the question
>
> --
>
> www.linkreincarnate.com
>
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>
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