[Noisebridge-discuss] Get the F Out!

[Garrett Smith]

On 3/16/13, Sean Cusack <sean.p.cusack at gmail.com> wrote:
> I like chemistry things (and used to do it for a living), so I checked all
> this out! What can I say, I get intrigued!
>
> Quick background to bring non chemistry lovers up to speed. FlourINE is an
> element, but you can't find any hanging around in its natural form as
> FlourINE. Instead, it comes bundled up with other atoms, then dissociates

AIUI, yes, when immersed in water, the fluoride will mostly dissociate...

> into the FlourIDE anion. Basically, what I'm trying to say is that you
> can't buy a bucket of Flouride and dump it into something....it has to come
> from somewhere.
>
> From what I can tell, the website is *really* protesting the use of
> Fluoride from an HFS source instead of the (naturally occurring) CaF

Or

> source. Since HFS is a byproduct of other industrial processes, it is
> claimed that it is "hazardous waste" on the site. Just because it is a
> byproduct doesn't mean its waste. Its industry's version of material
> recycling. The people that make this HFS as a byproduct have to clean it up
> to sell it just like it was any other chemical, or else no one would
> purchase it.
>
But is it in fact "cleaned up" or does it contain arsenic, lead, and
other contaminants?

> Secondly, HFS is an attractive flourine source since it has *6* flourines
> per molecule. The naturally occurring version only has 2. More flourines
> per molecule, the less you need to buy to get the dose you want, so its
> cheaper. What about safety? The leftover silicon will probably bond with
> some oxygen running around to form good old SiO2 - which is sand. Like, the
> stuff on the beach.
>
AIUI, that is correct.

> Lastly is the dose. I don't know what the dose of flouride in water is.
> However, it is known that a dose of 70mg F / 1 kg body mass would kill half
> the people that took it. If we assume even a 3kg newborn, that would be a
> 210mg F- dose. HFS has a sour odor, and fumes if it is in too high of a
> concentration. If we assume we'd be able to smell 1 part in 10,000 flouride
> (*very conservative*. We can smell parts per million of sulfur compounds),
> that means concentration in the water supply is 0.1mg / gram water or less.
> At 0.1mg/g conc, a newborn baby would have to drink 2100g = 2100mL or about
> 4 pint glasses full of water to get this dose in a day. Not impossible, but
> near impossible.
>
Acute ingestion would be rather perilous to the organism. And that is
exactly why the ingredient for common rat poison is NaF. That and the
fact that NaF is odorless.

Chronic ingestion is another matter altogether. And there is the issue
of of age and dose-dependent result, which then brings the questions
of actual results of fluoride ingestion by different types of
individuals.

The total amount of fluoride ingested by any arbitrary individual
cannot by controlled by water fluoridation. AISB.

>> Fluoride from water accumulates in processed foods and beverages and
>> from cooking. For example pasta, oats, wheat berries will all absorb
>> water from fluoride. Other sources of fluoride include tea, dental
>> products, pesticides, PFOA (non-stick) pans, pharmaceuticals,
>> processed meats, and produce (from "cryolite" which is sodium aluminum
>> fluoride, and from fluoridated water used in crop irrigation).

The patient is not only uninformed of the drugging -- and again, its
not a nutrient but a toxic drug -- he is never monitored for side
effects of the regiment. Not only is the patient unmonitored for
long-term side effects, no patient has ever been.

We've seen in history the situation with TEL (tetraethyly lead), an
anti-knock additive. For years, that was considered to be safe, like
fluoride, and for years, we were told that there was no proof that it
was harmful in "small" amounts, all by the big companies General
Motors, DuPont Corp. Standard Oil and Charles Kettering.

Kettering is also implicated in the promotion of water fluoridation.


> Anyways, those are my $0.02.
>
And worthwhile of discussion, even if top-posted.


Late for class now..

-- 
Garrett
Twitter: @xkit
personx.tumblr.com