[Noisebridge-discuss] anti-anonymity proposals

jim jim at systemateka.com
Sun Nov 17 18:36:49 UTC 2013

I apologize to those who use the NB discuss list; 
I am truly sorry to have started this combat that 
has clogged the use of the list. 

[You think I'm bad, hang me: I deserve it; but do 
so for the right reasons.] 


    As to females being harassed,      # 1. already stupid 
for cases of crude coppings of feels,  # and reckless 

I dislike taht female turning to the   # 2. opinion 
community for support;                 # 3. mis-statement 

I would eagerly defend any female      # 4. support 
who hauled off and slugged whoever     # 5. no suggestion 
copped a feel 

or to go get some friends and return   # 6. seek out others 
to verbally educate the offender: 

it's dis-empowering to perceive one's  # 7. I mean this 
self as a victim 

and turn to a community for support    # 8. mis-statement, 
for what is an individual incident.    # I meant asuthority 

    There will be no way fully to      # 9. I think time will 
suppress such actions taken            # bear this out 

Intended message: 
Do not tolerate harassment of any kind! Fight back! 
Seek out support! Avoid feelings of fear! 
Avoid The Tuesday Night Meeting! 

1. Stupid, stupid, foolish, and reckless me. I dashed 
this off in a pique, chose a lurid example, did not 
qualify the example, and--knowing this would cause a 
s-storm--I clicked the Send button. I'd had a quick 
feel in a crowd in mind as an example. Stupid me. I 
did not know the depth to which the topic resonated. 
I am very sorry to have bombed the list. [A] 

2. I am not dictating anything to anyone. I'm stating 
my opinion. 

3. Sorry for this choice of words: I meant "do not 
turn to The Tuesday Night Meeting." [B] 

4. Fight back! (But beware escalating violence, per 
Hannah's warning re someone pulling a knife.) [C] 

5. I do not recommend hitting or escalating 
violence. Violence is stupid. But fighting back 
is right! Do not tolerate harassment. 

6. Seek out others. Do not isolate yourself. 

7. Do not let fear or discouragement enter your 
feelings! Those are toxic for your own sense of 

8. Avoid authority. Using such structures is 
dis-empowering and a haven for betrayal, despite 
any good founding intentions. [D] 

9. I'm guessing some time in 2014 there'll be 
another instance. 

[A] I am out of touch with the evening NB crowd, 
and that's where most discussions occur. 
    Insensitive? Probably, but I do not want 
harassment issues in my life: they're awful and 
disruptive. I don't want to put out fires, either. 
    I'm for kindness and patience. 

[B] The Tuesday Night Meeting was established 
as a convening ground for people to bring issues 
for discussion and to allow consensus to protect 
individuals from the tyranny of the majority. 
    I believe that NB has gradually changed the 
perception of The Tuesday Night Meeting and its 
denizens to a structure for bringing governing 
authority to the general community, and I think 
this is bad! We had one rule: be excellent to 
each other. There's wisdom in that, including 
the fact of only one rule. 
    I think some are seeking to establish 
authority in order to facilitate addressing 
problems, and I think that's poisonous. 

[C] I've presented my foolish scenario in 
conversation to two different women, neither 
of whom gave me any but positive feedback. 
    Of course, they were not part of NB 
history, and I had explained the limits of the 
scenario. One did double-take to ask me what 
I meant with respect to the hit back part. 

[D] Those who've responded to me have done 
right! Good for you, despite your inaccuracies! 
You've attacked me like white corpuscles 
surround a germ. I'd rather face a lynch mob 
than a hanging judge. Fight back is right! 

    I've avoided The Tuesday Night Meetings 
not so much because they're tedious as because 
they have been too late at night. These days 
there seems a horrid authoritarian component. 

    I deserve what I've gotten; I was stupid 
and careless and inconsiderate. 
    I believe I have read and thought about 
your responses. 
    I'm sick of all this as well as you. I 
fear that I've lost the good will of a couple 
of people for whom I care. 
    I do not think I've tried to squirm out of 
my positions (I have certainly changed my mind 
in some respects, thanks to responses). 
    If you think I need further scolding or 
education, have at: I will read and think. Do 
not misquote me or misconstrue my meanings. 

On Sat, 2013-11-16 at 17:33 -0800, Rachel McConnell wrote:
> Jim, you are wrong.  Others have explained why in awesome ways so I 
> won't restate how; I will just note, they are right and you are wrong.
> I really hope you think hard about what they've said and not dismiss it 
> because you are older and have more Life Experience - your Life 
> Experience does not include anything like what women at NB have 
> experienced and is, in this case, effectively nil.
> Rachel1.0
> On 11/15/13 8:24 PM, jim wrote:
> >
> >
> > JS: my replies interspersed below
> >
> > On Fri, 2013-11-15 at 14:29 -0800, Snail wrote:
> >> On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 11:13 AM, jim <jim at systemateka.com> wrote:
> >>              As to females being harassed, for cases of
> >>          crude coppings of feels, I dislike taht female
> >>          turning to the community for support; I would
> >>          eagerly defend any female who hauled off and
> >>          slugged whoever copped a feel or to go get some
> >>          friends and return to verbally educate the
> >>          offender: it's dis-empowering to perceive one's
> >>          self as a victim and turn to a community for
> >>          support for what is an individual incident.
> >>
> >> Whoa - whoa whoa whoa - whoaaaaa...
> >>
> >> Time out - did you really just say that women who get groped ("cases
> >> of crude coppings of feels") should not ask the community to help them
> >> out? And you believe that it's disempowering somehow??
> > JS: You've got it correctly. That is my belief. To
> > run to a community (in the formal sense) is weakening.
> > To run to other people who are supportive is good
> > and strengthening. I.e., having a No Harassment
> > policy is toxic.
> >>
> >> And that people should just punch people or deal with it on their own?
> >> Is this really what you're suggesting?
> > JS: No, my meaning is that I will eagerly defend (support)
> > anyone (for the example, female) who slugged another who
> > had behaved egregiously and physically.
> >>
> >
> >>              There will be no way fully to suppress such
> >>          actions taken by horney and inconsiderate
> >>          personages, policies and rules and committee
> >>          resolutions aside (far, far aside, I hope).
> >
> >
> >> I can't even. Here's a good way to suppress the actions of "horney" or
> >> inconsiderate people: never let them back in Noisebridge because
> >> that's a terrible excuse for their actions!
> > JS: I probably don't agree, but it's a case-by-case
> > issue. It seems best to educate and accept and invite,
> > as a general rule. Certainly there are some who are
> > too disruptive to have around, but case by case....
> >>
> >>              Please ask yourself if you are prone to
> >>          express yourself when you believe you have the
> >>          "high ground" and can properly scold others. I.e.,
> >>          are you living too much with anger?
> >
> >> With the rage of a thousand burning stars.
> >>
> >>
> >> TO EVERYONE ELSE READING THIS - There are lots of people in the
> >> community at large who will help you out if someone is creeping on you
> >> or worse, whether you are "taht females" or just a plain ol' human
> >> being!
> > Exactly right!
> >
> >> Don't let what Jim says dissuade you from reporting harassment or
> >> assault or pointing out creepers!
> > "Reporting" sucks and is toxic. Deal with it yourself,
> > you and others who support you, but not the community
> > as the term is used--do not bring a single incident up
> > at meetings or report it to some harassment nazis; do
> > ask others for help and do confront the inconsiderate
> > one, regardless of the particular action.
> >
> >> This is not an opinion everyone here carries.
> > right
> >
> >> Please don't ever feel like it's your fault or that you're required to
> >> punch people -
> > no one recommended punching, you'll note. I will
> > gladly defend those who defend themselves.
> >
> >> it's a valid and rational response to remove yourself from a dangerous
> >> situation and try to sort things out later from a safe place rather
> >> than confront your harasser/assaulter.
> > right!
> >
> >> If someone is creeping on you, they are pretty much always creeping on
> >> OTHERS, too,
> > The above is presumptive and not necessarily true.
> >
> >> so you are not alone or stuck in some isolated personal incident! And
> >> as a community we can try to make Noisebridge a safer place for
> >> everyone.
> > absolutely right!
> >>
> >>
> >> Also, women really appreciate being called women and not "females". Do
> >> you go around saying "the males" when referring to men? Probably not.
> >>
> > My first preferences are "boys" and "girls", then "guys"
> > and "gals" and "males" and "females". I dislike the terms
> > "men" and "women" because I think those terms bring along
> > a lot of toxic baggage.
> >
> >> Angry forever,
> > too bad; try to change that so you don't grow up to be bitter.
> >
> >> Snail
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> -Snailssnailssnailssnailssnailssnailssnails
> >> ............. _ at y
> >> http://obamaischeckingyouremail.tumblr.com/
> >>
> >
> >
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> > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >
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