[Noisebridge-discuss] [drama] anti-anonymity proposals

Hannah Grimm dharlette at gmail.com
Mon Nov 18 05:19:49 UTC 2013

"Think I'm wrong? Tell me some of your experiences, don't just tell me to
shut up."

Jim, I've already spoken publicly about my experiences with sexual
harassment at Noisebridge.  Here's an excerpt from my post on the matter:

I've been spending time at Noisebridge for the last year, and in that time,
> I've been harassed by multiple people on many different occasions, almost
> always with members present.  Never once has a member intervened or spoken
> up on my behalf: not when Weev called me a cunt or made anti-semitic,
> anti-mormon, anti-woman, anti-gay jokes loudly in the space, not when
> someone loudly (and descriptively) told me about the "sluts" they
> double-penetrated the night before, not when an individual (upon seeing me
> about to leave the space on my Powerisers) declared "I love your stilts.
>  I'm going to make you my bride and then those will be mine" before
> slapping my ass as I was leaving just a few weeks ago.  The closest thing I
> have felt to supported in the space was when one individual decided to
> doocratically paint over the bathroom wall, which at the time was covered
> in images of maimed and broken crying women with enormous tits and waists
> so thin they would make Barbie jealous.

 "Women have never been half the population of Noisebridge, and that's a
shame. We all lose out."

Jim, I want to point something out to you.  The list of people who have
come here to argue with you includes almost every single woman who
regularly posts to NB-discuss.  When you come here and talk about women's
issues, and *literally every woman who hears you tells you that you are
wrong*, that should be a good reason to think that you are wrong.  LISTEN
to the women on this list.  What we're telling you is that we want the
support of the community in removing harassers from our midst.  We're
telling you that it's empowering to feel like we have help and support.
 We're telling you that it's the harassment that is disempowering, not the
act of seeking help about it.  You are consistently ignoring our input
here.  That to me points to deeper problems.

"Sense of safety is an issue? Take power and fix it. "

The single most empowering experience I've had at NB was getting that
anti-harassment policy passed.  That was me taking control of a really
unpleasant situation (being publicly groped) and trying to fix it.  And you
know what?  It's working.  The way people respond to sexist remarks on
NB-discuss has changed.  It used to be that casual sexism was given a pass,
now the community leaps forward.  THAT is empowering.

On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 7:06 PM, jim <jim at systemateka.com> wrote:

>     You're right. I wrote quite a bit else
> (I've read what I wrote several times); it
> seems this is a hair trigger topic with a
> lot of load, so much so that all other
> aspects don't matter. And it's definitely
> my fault.
>     I never told anybody how to feel about
> their experiences, nor did I "dictate". I
> expressed my opinion. You don't like it,
> ignore it or argue against or whatever,
> but don't accuse me of dictating or telling <---
> people how to feel. My responses evidence
> that I listen thoughtfully.
>     Your last paragraph is over the top. You
> have no idea what I might have experienced,
> and again, I have not told anyone how or what
> to feel! I believe to let some harasser make
> one feel like a victim is toxic, bad for one's
> health. I'm not telling anyone how to feel.
>    And I'm not trying to derail your objections
> to whatever I've written. I'm responding
> directly that you're misquoting and/or mis-
> interpreting my opinions for dictums. Think
> I'm wrong? Tell me some of your experiences,
> don't just tell me to shut up.
>     Women have never been half the population
> of Noisebridge, and that's a shame. We all lose
> out. Sense of safety is an issue? Take power
> and fix it. I disagree with the direction some
> of you are taking; I think you'll find out why,
> tho' I hope not.
>     I defend my right to express myself and I
> welcome your criticisms and have responded so.
> But don't accuse me of dictating to anyone; I
> have not. That you think so is in your head,
> not mine.
>     I've acknowledged all criticisms and have
> agreed with some and changed some of my tune.
>     I reserve the right and responsibility to
> voice my disagreement. People have not said my
> opinion is full of crap; they've said I'm
> dictating and telling others how to feel. That's
> nonsense. Cut it out. You don't like my opinion?
> Address it. Explain how letting one's self feel
> victimized is empowering or healthy or any other
> thing you think.
>     Insult me any way you please. If you can
> bring an argument, such as Hannah's point about
> a potential knife fight, I'll be attentive. Call
> me an idiot? Okay. I'll not call you a moron.
> On Sun, 2013-11-17 at 18:25 -0800, hep wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 2:32 PM, jim <jim at systemateka.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >             Why is this about women only, and why is my
> >         opinion not welcome--after all, that's all I'm
> >         doing, presenting my point of view. Do you think
> >         that seeing one's self as a victim is okay?
> >
> >
> > this is about women only because you framed it that way, fyi. you
> > might want to read your original post again where this whole thing
> > touched off.
> >
> >
> > also: i love when a man tells someone how to feel about what they
> > experienced. you are once again doing that here jim (it isn't up to
> > you to dictate how a woman or person who was the victim of sexual
> > assault feels about it. please stop doing that, and understand that
> > you ARE doing it to begin with. again. AGAIN.)
> >
> >
> >
> >             Why do you say I'm ignoring anyone's experiences?
> >         I have no idea what others feel and have not so
> >         claimed. I am certainly open to listening and
> >         considering, as I think is obvious by my replies
> >         in this email thread.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > you are ignoring other people's lived experiences because you keep
> > telling us how to feel about an experience that not only do you not
> > have any experience with, but you couldn't because there are hundreds
> > of years of abuse and unfair power dynamics behind it that you, as a
> > cis-male in america, will never experience or be part of. sorry!
> >
> >             It's dis-empowering to be harassed if you let
> >         it be.
> >
> >
> > again, telling women or persons the victim of sexual
> > harassment/assault how they should feel about it. AGAIN!!!!!
> >
> >
> >             I dislike the trend to any policies other
> >         than treat each other excellently. Why is my
> >         opinion not welcome in the group?
> >
> >
> > your opinion, at this point, is unwelcome because the many lived
> > experiences of women at noisebridge dictate that this isn't enough for
> > them to feel safe and as valued members of the community. you keep
> > arguing to keep things the way they are, which isn't working for half
> > the population visiting noisebridge. MANY women have at this point
> > completely lost interest in noisebridge as a community, not because
> > they aren't interested, or weren't willing to be part of it, but
> > because it feels to them unsafe. i am one of those women. many of my
> > female friends are also those women. i am sure many women or others
> > are also part of that group.
> >
> >             You're right that to report any problems
> >         to disbelief is dis-empowering, certainly
> >         discouraging. But in such a case, shouldn't one
> >         take courage and fight back? I think so.
> >
> >
> > that is what we are doing here. awkward that you keep trying to derail
> > it.
> >
> >
> >             I've read your email and thought about what
> >         you've said. I am defending my right to express
> >         my opinions about life and feelings, and others
> >         have a right to take them or leave them as they
> >         choose. I am not dictating or telling anyone
> >         anything. Why do you think I am? I hope you'll
> >         answer that question.
> >
> >
> > you seem to feel that not only do you have the right to express
> > yourself, but you have the right to do so free of criticism.
> > unfortunately that's not how it works. the many people telling you
> > that your opinion is full of crap and to stfu are also exercising
> > their free speech. you seem to have people confused with "congress" as
> > in "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
> > religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the
> > freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people
> > peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of
> > grievances." random people aren't congress. random people have every
> > right to tell you to stfu if they feel like it. social acceptance and
> > civil rights are two totally different things, and just because you
> > are exercising your civil rights does not entitle you to social
> > acceptance.
> >
> >
> >             My choice is to defend my right to express my
> >         point of view as well as to listen and think about
> >         whatever you have to say, and I believe I've
> >         repeatedly demonstrated that.
> >
> >
> > you can feel free to repeatedly reiterate that you are an idiot. i
> > will continue to call you an idiot. ymmv .
> >
> >
> > -hep
> >
> >
> > --
> > hep
> > hepic photography || www.hepic.net
> >     dis at gruntle.org || 415 867 9472
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