[Noisebridge-discuss] Cooking in the space, update

Ceren Ercen ceren at ercen.com
Thu Apr 3 21:58:51 UTC 2014

Mr Rodgers wouldn't put these people up in a space that doesn't belong to

On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 4:58 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:

> <RANT>
> I got a couple of emails off-list questioning my judgment on this, so I
> thought I would follow up with some other thoughts I had...
> The other night, I was walking back from consensus in the cold downpouring
> rain.  I could see my breath and I was soaked.  I know for east coasters,
> this mild california weather is nothing, but the fact is, SF get's COLD.
> It was COLD and WET.  I saw at least one person huddling in a corner trying
> to stay dry.  I looked at him and remembered the times when I was that cold
> and hungry and alone -- I was miserable, it was the worst lonliest feeling
> in the world, and the only thing I wanted was to be in a warm place.
> About a year and half ago I saw an email to nb-discuss from a young woman
> who had come to SF recently and had no place to go for the night, and she
> was escorted out in the middle of the night after being woken up from her
> sleep.  She related that she was terrified of being out in the streets
> alone at night in the mission.  I'll happily take the flak from many
> noisebridgers to help someone stay warm on a cold rainy night.  To me,
> being human is about finding ways to bend the rules and share resources for
> human benefit.
> You all are right, NB is not a homeless shelter.  I don't have all the
> answers.  Maybe all of you are totally in the right that we should be
> locking down.  We aren't equipped for it.  I'm not even necessarily arguing
> on these points.  What I am saying is that people at noisebridge are
> PEOPLE.  Everyone has feelings, everyone has needs, everyone needs to be
> approach with, as James Sundquist just said - with dignity and conversation
> and benefit of the doubt, and not dehumanized and stereotyped.  WHAT WOULD
> Or more importantly, how do we give everyone SLACK,
> </RANT>
> On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 8:58 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Awww thanks!!!  I actually think the both of you are quite adorable too!
>> What I think will take a longer time to write up than I have at the
>> moment.  I'll save that for a future post.
>> In so far as the lease:  I really don't think it's as big as a
>> bogeyperson as people are worrying about.  That's not to say we should have
>> people living in elevator shafts...
>> But more than that, I do think we should be focused on building positive
>> consensus:  if we focus too much on rigid rules and not enough on the
>> people, then we just get bunch of miserable people:  as much as we wish
>> that legal systems could be like code and we could get it debugged and
>> working like a machine, it's just not that way.  We are people not machines.
>> On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 6:38 PM, Will Sargent <will.sargent at gmail.com>wrote:
>>> It's pretty clear that Praveen either doesn't care or can't conceive of
>>> any repercussions to Noisebridge as a result of his actions.
>>> People doing drugs at the space?  Fine.
>>> People offering drugs at the space?  Also fine.
>>> People sleeping at the space?  Not just fine, Praveen will actually give
>>> you an invitation.
>>> The idea that Noisebridge might actually lose its lease is just not
>>> there.  The idea that there might be people adversely affected is not
>>> there.  There's not even a balancing of good versus bad there -- Praveen
>>> thinks it's good, everyone who thinks its bad must be wrong and unexcellent.
>>> Will.
>>> On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 5:45 PM, Ceren Ercen <ceren at ercen.com> wrote:
>>>> "Blah blah I got caught living at the space and so i will ramble enough
>>>> and act confused about how this violates and endangers NB's lease, people
>>>> will get distracted discussing hypotheticals about a live-in docent. Blah
>>>> blah. "
>>>> Praveen, you're adorable, but no, no living at the space. The lease
>>>> agreement should be the end of the story. Go start another space if you
>>>> want a hacker space with a lease that allows for a live-in person. Good
>>>> luck with that.
>>>> For the record, I wouldn't consider someone for the position who had
>>>> already pointedly ignored the community rules, based solidly on the
>>>> agreement with the landlord that NO ONE LIVES IN THE SPACE.
>>>>  On Apr 2, 2014 8:16 PM, "Frantisek Apfelbeck" <algoldor at yahoo.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Hi to all,
>>>>> Just shortly about my involvement, I'm repeating my self but well
>>>>> looks like the old story is being loved to come out again :-) It is not
>>>>> directly connected to the current cooking in the space, so skip it if you
>>>>> are just sorting out this issue.
>>>>> Tastebridge was great fun and it was more or less keeping the back of
>>>>> the Noisebridge (bathrooms and kitchen) operational and because I like
>>>>> things clean and organized it was in general taken as a positive direction.
>>>>> Sometimes we had a screw ups like over fermented bottles of kombucha
>>>>> spraying people around, some stuff not cleaned on time and fridges having
>>>>> out of day items. However in general it was kept well, we did catering for
>>>>> 5 min of fame events, member meetings, underground markets etc. promoting
>>>>> our activities from that and getting also part of our budget.
>>>>> Al's announcement that I'm moving out with my name in the subject was
>>>>> a good show of how not to do stuff in that time in the community, caused a
>>>>> lots of drama and Al was shouted at a lot. The main reason was because he
>>>>> did not give me time and space to talk about that, especially not with
>>>>> mediators or few members being present from both yes and no sides. This was
>>>>> really pity I think because I would definitely not endanger my position in
>>>>> the community with such a fopa especially when I had another options, which
>>>>> I had. So in another words big drama which could be sorted quite quietly.
>>>>> To be absolutely honest it was maybe better that it become a big issue,
>>>>> because I feel now much more with the people who are targeted in a similar
>>>>> manner for variety of actions even when things can be sorted in a
>>>>> reasonable way. Public mop. However again in that time, the resolution was
>>>>> found very quickly and I could continue with my activities without any
>>>>> issues, so concerning the work no harm done, for the integrity of the
>>>>> Noisebridge community not the best. Now after the years with keeping an eye
>>>>> on the activities in the space from around the world through the discuss
>>>>> and talking to friends I have still the feeling that the main target by Al
>>>>> was actually me not directly my activities, that is at least my opinion.
>>>>> After being active in many hackerspaces around the world I think that
>>>>> having separate living quarters/areas for people involved in community
>>>>> places is a good idea and I vote for that, really looking forward to help
>>>>> out the build up of by Mitch promoting hacker residency programs. If people
>>>>> live in their working places it gets often too intensive, they become too
>>>>> obsessive and if someone doesn't like someone else it is blocking the
>>>>> energies/flow in the place. So I'm now more for separate accommodation and
>>>>> living arrangements seems to me neater.
>>>>> This paragraph you my skip it is too long for many just quick personal
>>>>> explanation :-) Concerning my sleeping/living in the place, it intensified
>>>>> especially at the end of my stay in SF when I have found out that I have to
>>>>> sort out with the immigration my stay because when I entered the USA the
>>>>> last time they did not give me the stamp on the border and when I left the
>>>>> time before they did not signed me off, so it looked like that I'm in the
>>>>> states nearly for 2 years which is not exactly what my PhD. visa for 6
>>>>> months would allow. If I had to leave immediately the states I would have
>>>>> to train a new brewer in Three Stone Hearth Kitchen where I was a master
>>>>> brewer and that would be an issue, because at least month or so should be
>>>>> needed. So when I realized what issues I'm potentially facing I had around
>>>>> one week or 10 days more or less to sort that out, with possibly leaving
>>>>> the place immediately after. That cause way more than 16 hours working days
>>>>> and me staying in he place. I've stayed in the place in the months before
>>>>> over the night, which sometimes meant finishing up around 3 am brewing
>>>>> class and getting up before 7 am to leave for Berkeley to brew. However
>>>>> majority of the time, and that means 5-6 days per week I was happily
>>>>> sleeping somewhere close to the beach, in the park, out of the town, with
>>>>> friends couch surfing, name it. That I liked, staying at Noisebridge over
>>>>> the night was kind of must and I tried o avoid it both because of potential
>>>>> troubles and not doing me well. Believe it or not I do not like to overstep
>>>>> if I know that the community doesn't approve of that in general, but well
>>>>> in this case I did and I appologised. However as I said especially at the
>>>>> period when I had to sort out my issues with the immigration I was staying
>>>>> around more and that was not good for anyone.
>>>>> Well I think that would be enough for recapitulation, have a good time
>>>>> and I hope you manage to keep the place running nice and open, based on
>>>>> consensus with active community showing the direction. It was possible
>>>>> before, it can be done again.
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck
>>>>> biotechnologist&kvasir and hacker
>>>>> http://www.frantisekapfelbeck.org
>>>>> "There is no way to peace, peace is the way." Mohandas Karamchand
>>>>> Gandhi
>>>>>    On Thursday, April 3, 2014 3:26 AM, daravinne <daravinne at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>   when i first started doing 5mof a few years ago, part of the ritual
>>>>> was getting there from work and taking a nap in a comfy chair before i
>>>>> started doing event-related stuff.
>>>>> frantisek was one of the first people i ever encountered at the space
>>>>> and his implementation of tastebridge was focused and well-run.  i didn't
>>>>> really see it as a problem that he was living at the space, since i noticed
>>>>> that after he was ejected, less productive and helpful people replaced him,
>>>>> and the overall cleanliness and good working order of the space declined.
>>>>> him being there most of the time was a great benefit to the space, because
>>>>> he did genuinely care about the state of the space he was using and made up
>>>>> his use of resources by providing the intangible service of near-constant
>>>>> management.  i do read all his emails, and i agree with praveen that his
>>>>> insights are valuable, possibly more so than other people who are currently
>>>>> overseas and continue to post to the list.
>>>>> On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Johny Radio <johnyradio at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>  Some of the best nb hackers have slept at nb once or twice.
>>>>> Nb has only ITSELF to blame. When you open the door to all comers,
>>>>> don't be shocked at their behavior.
>>>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>>>> From: "Ceren Ercen" <ceren at ercen.com>
>>>>> To: "Jeffrey Carl Faden" <jeffreyatw at gmail.com>
>>>>> Cc: "Frantisek Apfelbeck" <algoldor at yahoo.com>; "NoiseBridge Discuss"
>>>>> <noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>
>>>>> Sent: 4/2/2014 8:53:41 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] Cooking in the space, update
>>>>> Seriously.
>>>>> Frantisek, you covertly squatted in the NB space, and got all
>>>>> apology-tastic when you got caught.
>>>>> You should have the sense and humility to recuse yourself from all
>>>>> topics that are addressing the serious problem of  "how do we stop people
>>>>> from trying to live in the space".  Even if it's your pet "I like to
>>>>> ferment things" workspace.
>>>>> Somehow, you don't have the clue or grace to back the fuck off. So I
>>>>> will suggest it for you. Back away from this thread, no one read your
>>>>> rambling email. If you're distressed, consider that it's actions like YOURS
>>>>> that made it impossible for Noisebridge to have a pleasantly luxurious
>>>>> kitchen. Great job.
>>>>> - Ceren
>>>>> On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Jeffrey Carl Faden <
>>>>> jeffreyatw at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Reminder: biotechnologist & kvasir and hacker Frantisek Algoldor
>>>>> Apfelbeck from Kasiri, Jeju repeatedly slept in the off-limits south
>>>>> stairwell at Noisebridge, so anything he has to say about proper use of
>>>>> facilities should be taken with a grain of salt.
>>>>> Jeffrey
>>>>>  On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 5:55 AM, Frantisek Apfelbeck <
>>>>> algoldor at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>  Hi to all,
>>>>> Just few notes on the kitchen, I have run and helped to equip many
>>>>> around the world and on variety of hacker events especially in last few
>>>>> years under the Food Hacking Base project which the Tastebridge was a first
>>>>> step I would say. It is interesting to see so many hackerspaces going
>>>>> forward on biotech, food hacking and brewing with Noisebridge being one of
>>>>> the forerunners with amazing set up around 2010 and 2011 and now well ...
>>>>> stove - crucial. If you do not have a stove you can not cook most of
>>>>> the meals and brewing is an issue for many types of beverages, also you
>>>>> will have really problem to sterilize - pressure cooker works fine if you
>>>>> have one. Kitchen without stove is close to not being a kitchen, biotech
>>>>> applications need sterilization most of the time and heat treatment of
>>>>> ingredients is often crucial (and microwave is not a cure for everything).
>>>>> fridge - very important. To keep you perishable food ingredients,
>>>>> cultures and of course nice cold drinks it is more or less necessity, at
>>>>> least for reasonable food and beverage hacking. Kitchen without fridge is
>>>>> doable but quite an issue.
>>>>> preparation place - working bench if you like, crucial. Having some
>>>>> space to work on is crucial especially if you want to work fast and safe.
>>>>> Do not underestimate the height of the bench it hits your back if is too
>>>>> low or too high. This one is really important on hands on workshops.
>>>>> sinks - crucial. For keeping the place clean and the work flow
>>>>> continuous sinks and preferably running water are really a key. If you do
>>>>> not have it, you are in trouble. Dishwasher works too, but well sink is
>>>>> sink.
>>>>> storage - for dry ingredients especially. If you want to play around
>>>>> you need your ingredients and they need to stored properly. Stainless steel
>>>>> or glass well sealed work very well, plastic is a good cheap alternative.
>>>>> Insect and rats may be an issue if they get out of hand which was a case in
>>>>> the building many times so this one has to be kept in mind.
>>>>> The answer to how to keep the kitchen clean is both simple and
>>>>> complicated. The way which works for me and projects in which I'm involved
>>>>> is to get together people who enjoy playing with food, hacking, brewing,
>>>>> biotech and consuming&enjoying the products of their efforts and let them
>>>>> to organize the spot, sometimes poke them a bit if the things go out of
>>>>> hand. Better environment you have from the point of view of
>>>>> equipment/infrastructure and funds, more likely you are to form a nice and
>>>>> vibrant community around it and enjoy their achievements. Note as most of
>>>>> the things in community the social interactions are really important and
>>>>> preparing and sharing the meals and drinks brings together people really
>>>>> well.
>>>>> Best of luck with your kitchen plans, try to keep it nice and
>>>>> functional, it will pay off eventually. However even if you decide to
>>>>> destroy it, which I do not consider wise because it will not touch a core
>>>>> of the current problem, when the time comes, it will be build again, it
>>>>> will just require bit more dedicated people than if it is already standing
>>>>> and ready to be used.
>>>>> Sincerely from Kasiri, Jeju,
>>>>> Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck
>>>>> PS Just a note, yes the Noisebridge community has a major social
>>>>> issues and to start to resolve them lots of time and energy from people who
>>>>> are socially developed and sensitive will be needed, the question for you
>>>>> now is how to get them involved and enjoy their work and being productive.
>>>>> 091 labs in Galway, Ireland are running for a brewing classes for a while
>>>>> and it is generating lots of positive interest. Add some tech related
>>>>> project like the experimental incubator build up and you can start to move
>>>>> the things forward in a sound way - friendly, social and organized.
>>>>> biotechnologist&kvasir and hacker
>>>>> http://www.frantisekapfelbeck.org
>>>>> "There is no way to peace, peace is the way." Mohandas Karamchand
>>>>> Gandhi
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
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>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
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