[Noisebridge-discuss] Cooking in the space, update

[Will Sargent]

I'm sure Praveen is just too modest to talk about how he volunteers up his
couch and kitchen and lets people use his apartment as a homeless shelter.


On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Ceren Ercen <ceren at ercen.com> wrote:

> Mr Rodgers wouldn't put these people up in a space that doesn't belong to
> him.
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 4:58 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> <RANT>
>> I got a couple of emails off-list questioning my judgment on this, so I
>> thought I would follow up with some other thoughts I had...
>>
>> The other night, I was walking back from consensus in the cold
>> downpouring rain.  I could see my breath and I was soaked.  I know for east
>> coasters, this mild california weather is nothing, but the fact is, SF
>> get's COLD.  It was COLD and WET.  I saw at least one person huddling in a
>> corner trying to stay dry.  I looked at him and remembered the times when I
>> was that cold and hungry and alone -- I was miserable, it was the worst
>> lonliest feeling in the world, and the only thing I wanted was to be in a
>> warm place.
>>
>> About a year and half ago I saw an email to nb-discuss from a young woman
>> who had come to SF recently and had no place to go for the night, and she
>> was escorted out in the middle of the night after being woken up from her
>> sleep.  She related that she was terrified of being out in the streets
>> alone at night in the mission.  I'll happily take the flak from many
>> noisebridgers to help someone stay warm on a cold rainy night.  To me,
>> being human is about finding ways to bend the rules and share resources for
>> human benefit.
>>
>> You all are right, NB is not a homeless shelter.  I don't have all the
>> answers.  Maybe all of you are totally in the right that we should be
>> locking down.  We aren't equipped for it.  I'm not even necessarily arguing
>> on these points.  What I am saying is that people at noisebridge are
>> PEOPLE.  Everyone has feelings, everyone has needs, everyone needs to be
>> approach with, as James Sundquist just said - with dignity and conversation
>> and benefit of the doubt, and not dehumanized and stereotyped.  WHAT WOULD
>> MR ROGERS DO.
>>
>> Or more importantly, how do we give everyone SLACK,
>>
>> </RANT>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 8:58 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Awww thanks!!!  I actually think the both of you are quite adorable too!
>>>
>>> What I think will take a longer time to write up than I have at the
>>> moment.  I'll save that for a future post.
>>>
>>> In so far as the lease:  I really don't think it's as big as a
>>> bogeyperson as people are worrying about.  That's not to say we should have
>>> people living in elevator shafts...
>>>
>>> But more than that, I do think we should be focused on building positive
>>> consensus:  if we focus too much on rigid rules and not enough on the
>>> people, then we just get bunch of miserable people:  as much as we wish
>>> that legal systems could be like code and we could get it debugged and
>>> working like a machine, it's just not that way.  We are people not machines.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 6:38 PM, Will Sargent <will.sargent at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> It's pretty clear that Praveen either doesn't care or can't conceive of
>>>> any repercussions to Noisebridge as a result of his actions.
>>>>
>>>> People doing drugs at the space?  Fine.
>>>> People offering drugs at the space?  Also fine.
>>>> People sleeping at the space?  Not just fine, Praveen will actually
>>>> give you an invitation.
>>>>
>>>> The idea that Noisebridge might actually lose its lease is just not
>>>> there.  The idea that there might be people adversely affected is not
>>>> there.  There's not even a balancing of good versus bad there -- Praveen
>>>> thinks it's good, everyone who thinks its bad must be wrong and unexcellent.
>>>>
>>>> Will.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 5:45 PM, Ceren Ercen <ceren at ercen.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Blah blah I got caught living at the space and so i will ramble
>>>>> enough and act confused about how this violates and endangers NB's lease,
>>>>> people will get distracted discussing hypotheticals about a live-in docent.
>>>>> Blah blah. "
>>>>>
>>>>> Praveen, you're adorable, but no, no living at the space. The lease
>>>>> agreement should be the end of the story. Go start another space if you
>>>>> want a hacker space with a lease that allows for a live-in person. Good
>>>>> luck with that.
>>>>>
>>>>> For the record, I wouldn't consider someone for the position who had
>>>>> already pointedly ignored the community rules, based solidly on the
>>>>> agreement with the landlord that NO ONE LIVES IN THE SPACE.
>>>>>  On Apr 2, 2014 8:16 PM, "Frantisek Apfelbeck" <algoldor at yahoo.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi to all,
>>>>>> Just shortly about my involvement, I'm repeating my self but well
>>>>>> looks like the old story is being loved to come out again :-) It is not
>>>>>> directly connected to the current cooking in the space, so skip it if you
>>>>>> are just sorting out this issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tastebridge was great fun and it was more or less keeping the back of
>>>>>> the Noisebridge (bathrooms and kitchen) operational and because I like
>>>>>> things clean and organized it was in general taken as a positive direction.
>>>>>> Sometimes we had a screw ups like over fermented bottles of kombucha
>>>>>> spraying people around, some stuff not cleaned on time and fridges having
>>>>>> out of day items. However in general it was kept well, we did catering for
>>>>>> 5 min of fame events, member meetings, underground markets etc. promoting
>>>>>> our activities from that and getting also part of our budget.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Al's announcement that I'm moving out with my name in the subject was
>>>>>> a good show of how not to do stuff in that time in the community, caused a
>>>>>> lots of drama and Al was shouted at a lot. The main reason was because he
>>>>>> did not give me time and space to talk about that, especially not with
>>>>>> mediators or few members being present from both yes and no sides. This was
>>>>>> really pity I think because I would definitely not endanger my position in
>>>>>> the community with such a fopa especially when I had another options, which
>>>>>> I had. So in another words big drama which could be sorted quite quietly.
>>>>>> To be absolutely honest it was maybe better that it become a big issue,
>>>>>> because I feel now much more with the people who are targeted in a similar
>>>>>> manner for variety of actions even when things can be sorted in a
>>>>>> reasonable way. Public mop. However again in that time, the resolution was
>>>>>> found very quickly and I could continue with my activities without any
>>>>>> issues, so concerning the work no harm done, for the integrity of the
>>>>>> Noisebridge community not the best. Now after the years with keeping an eye
>>>>>> on the activities in the space from around the world through the discuss
>>>>>> and talking to friends I have still the feeling that the main target by Al
>>>>>> was actually me not directly my activities, that is at least my opinion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> After being active in many hackerspaces around the world I think that
>>>>>> having separate living quarters/areas for people involved in community
>>>>>> places is a good idea and I vote for that, really looking forward to help
>>>>>> out the build up of by Mitch promoting hacker residency programs. If people
>>>>>> live in their working places it gets often too intensive, they become too
>>>>>> obsessive and if someone doesn't like someone else it is blocking the
>>>>>> energies/flow in the place. So I'm now more for separate accommodation and
>>>>>> living arrangements seems to me neater.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This paragraph you my skip it is too long for many just quick
>>>>>> personal explanation :-) Concerning my sleeping/living in the place, it
>>>>>> intensified especially at the end of my stay in SF when I have found out
>>>>>> that I have to sort out with the immigration my stay because when I entered
>>>>>> the USA the last time they did not give me the stamp on the border and when
>>>>>> I left the time before they did not signed me off, so it looked like that
>>>>>> I'm in the states nearly for 2 years which is not exactly what my PhD. visa
>>>>>> for 6 months would allow. If I had to leave immediately the states I would
>>>>>> have to train a new brewer in Three Stone Hearth Kitchen where I was a
>>>>>> master brewer and that would be an issue, because at least month or so
>>>>>> should be needed. So when I realized what issues I'm potentially facing I
>>>>>> had around one week or 10 days more or less to sort that out, with possibly
>>>>>> leaving the place immediately after. That cause way more than 16 hours
>>>>>> working days and me staying in he place. I've stayed in the place in the
>>>>>> months before over the night, which sometimes meant finishing up around 3
>>>>>> am brewing class and getting up before 7 am to leave for Berkeley to brew.
>>>>>> However majority of the time, and that means 5-6 days per week I was
>>>>>> happily sleeping somewhere close to the beach, in the park, out of the
>>>>>> town, with friends couch surfing, name it. That I liked, staying at
>>>>>> Noisebridge over the night was kind of must and I tried o avoid it both
>>>>>> because of potential troubles and not doing me well. Believe it or not I do
>>>>>> not like to overstep if I know that the community doesn't approve of that
>>>>>> in general, but well in this case I did and I appologised. However as I
>>>>>> said especially at the period when I had to sort out my issues with the
>>>>>> immigration I was staying around more and that was not good for anyone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well I think that would be enough for recapitulation, have a good
>>>>>> time and I hope you manage to keep the place running nice and open, based
>>>>>> on consensus with active community showing the direction. It was possible
>>>>>> before, it can be done again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> biotechnologist&kvasir and hacker
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.frantisekapfelbeck.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "There is no way to peace, peace is the way." Mohandas Karamchand
>>>>>> Gandhi
>>>>>>    On Thursday, April 3, 2014 3:26 AM, daravinne <daravinne at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>   when i first started doing 5mof a few years ago, part of the
>>>>>> ritual was getting there from work and taking a nap in a comfy chair before
>>>>>> i started doing event-related stuff.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> frantisek was one of the first people i ever encountered at the space
>>>>>> and his implementation of tastebridge was focused and well-run.  i didn't
>>>>>> really see it as a problem that he was living at the space, since i noticed
>>>>>> that after he was ejected, less productive and helpful people replaced him,
>>>>>> and the overall cleanliness and good working order of the space declined.
>>>>>> him being there most of the time was a great benefit to the space, because
>>>>>> he did genuinely care about the state of the space he was using and made up
>>>>>> his use of resources by providing the intangible service of near-constant
>>>>>> management.  i do read all his emails, and i agree with praveen that his
>>>>>> insights are valuable, possibly more so than other people who are currently
>>>>>> overseas and continue to post to the list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Johny Radio <johnyradio at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Some of the best nb hackers have slept at nb once or twice.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nb has only ITSELF to blame. When you open the door to all comers,
>>>>>> don't be shocked at their behavior.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>>>>> From: "Ceren Ercen" <ceren at ercen.com>
>>>>>> To: "Jeffrey Carl Faden" <jeffreyatw at gmail.com>
>>>>>> Cc: "Frantisek Apfelbeck" <algoldor at yahoo.com>; "NoiseBridge
>>>>>> Discuss" <noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>
>>>>>> Sent: 4/2/2014 8:53:41 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] Cooking in the space, update
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Seriously.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Frantisek, you covertly squatted in the NB space, and got all
>>>>>> apology-tastic when you got caught.
>>>>>> You should have the sense and humility to recuse yourself from all
>>>>>> topics that are addressing the serious problem of  "how do we stop people
>>>>>> from trying to live in the space".  Even if it's your pet "I like to
>>>>>> ferment things" workspace.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Somehow, you don't have the clue or grace to back the fuck off. So I
>>>>>> will suggest it for you. Back away from this thread, no one read your
>>>>>> rambling email. If you're distressed, consider that it's actions like YOURS
>>>>>> that made it impossible for Noisebridge to have a pleasantly luxurious
>>>>>> kitchen. Great job.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Ceren
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Jeffrey Carl Faden <
>>>>>> jeffreyatw at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Reminder: biotechnologist & kvasir and hacker Frantisek Algoldor
>>>>>> Apfelbeck from Kasiri, Jeju repeatedly slept in the off-limits south
>>>>>> stairwell at Noisebridge, so anything he has to say about proper use of
>>>>>> facilities should be taken with a grain of salt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jeffrey
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 5:55 AM, Frantisek Apfelbeck <
>>>>>> algoldor at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Hi to all,
>>>>>> Just few notes on the kitchen, I have run and helped to equip many
>>>>>> around the world and on variety of hacker events especially in last few
>>>>>> years under the Food Hacking Base project which the Tastebridge was a first
>>>>>> step I would say. It is interesting to see so many hackerspaces going
>>>>>> forward on biotech, food hacking and brewing with Noisebridge being one of
>>>>>> the forerunners with amazing set up around 2010 and 2011 and now well ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> stove - crucial. If you do not have a stove you can not cook most of
>>>>>> the meals and brewing is an issue for many types of beverages, also you
>>>>>> will have really problem to sterilize - pressure cooker works fine if you
>>>>>> have one. Kitchen without stove is close to not being a kitchen, biotech
>>>>>> applications need sterilization most of the time and heat treatment of
>>>>>> ingredients is often crucial (and microwave is not a cure for everything).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> fridge - very important. To keep you perishable food ingredients,
>>>>>> cultures and of course nice cold drinks it is more or less necessity, at
>>>>>> least for reasonable food and beverage hacking. Kitchen without fridge is
>>>>>> doable but quite an issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> preparation place - working bench if you like, crucial. Having some
>>>>>> space to work on is crucial especially if you want to work fast and safe.
>>>>>> Do not underestimate the height of the bench it hits your back if is too
>>>>>> low or too high. This one is really important on hands on workshops.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> sinks - crucial. For keeping the place clean and the work flow
>>>>>> continuous sinks and preferably running water are really a key. If you do
>>>>>> not have it, you are in trouble. Dishwasher works too, but well sink is
>>>>>> sink.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> storage - for dry ingredients especially. If you want to play around
>>>>>> you need your ingredients and they need to stored properly. Stainless steel
>>>>>> or glass well sealed work very well, plastic is a good cheap alternative.
>>>>>> Insect and rats may be an issue if they get out of hand which was a case in
>>>>>> the building many times so this one has to be kept in mind.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The answer to how to keep the kitchen clean is both simple and
>>>>>> complicated. The way which works for me and projects in which I'm involved
>>>>>> is to get together people who enjoy playing with food, hacking, brewing,
>>>>>> biotech and consuming&enjoying the products of their efforts and let them
>>>>>> to organize the spot, sometimes poke them a bit if the things go out of
>>>>>> hand. Better environment you have from the point of view of
>>>>>> equipment/infrastructure and funds, more likely you are to form a nice and
>>>>>> vibrant community around it and enjoy their achievements. Note as most of
>>>>>> the things in community the social interactions are really important and
>>>>>> preparing and sharing the meals and drinks brings together people really
>>>>>> well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best of luck with your kitchen plans, try to keep it nice and
>>>>>> functional, it will pay off eventually. However even if you decide to
>>>>>> destroy it, which I do not consider wise because it will not touch a core
>>>>>> of the current problem, when the time comes, it will be build again, it
>>>>>> will just require bit more dedicated people than if it is already standing
>>>>>> and ready to be used.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely from Kasiri, Jeju,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck
>>>>>>
>>>>>> PS Just a note, yes the Noisebridge community has a major social
>>>>>> issues and to start to resolve them lots of time and energy from people who
>>>>>> are socially developed and sensitive will be needed, the question for you
>>>>>> now is how to get them involved and enjoy their work and being productive.
>>>>>> 091 labs in Galway, Ireland are running for a brewing classes for a while
>>>>>> and it is generating lots of positive interest. Add some tech related
>>>>>> project like the experimental incubator build up and you can start to move
>>>>>> the things forward in a sound way - friendly, social and organized.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> biotechnologist&kvasir and hacker
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.frantisekapfelbeck.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "There is no way to peace, peace is the way." Mohandas Karamchand
>>>>>> Gandhi
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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