[Noisebridge-discuss] mongodb and noisebridge

Naomi Most naomi at nthmost.com
Thu Jul 23 18:59:42 UTC 2015

Strangely I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other.

I think this discussion itself proves that if MongoDB came into
Noisebridge, paying for the time and the space, that we would do a very
good job mitigating the corporate influence by asserting our cultural
values regularly.


On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the best at pricing -- $500 a
> month is totally fine with me!
> I also want to be clear that I have no intention of putting a consensus
> block or anything of the like on Bryan or anyone.  I just want this issue
> discussed in the community before something similar next time as well.
> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Harry Moreno <morenoh149 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> so for 1 meetup per week this would be $*2000*/month?
>> I tried calculating something referencing
>> http://www.evenues.com/Meeting-Spaces/San%20Francisco/California/?id=106f69d5-42c4-42fa-b797-2d8ef6ce92cf
>> at $*50*/hour.
>> For 4 2-hour sessions per month that's $*500*/month. Keeping in mind
>> they used to host these at a coffeeshop for free
>> http://www.meetup.com/San-Francisco-MongoDB-User-Group/events/206109962/
>> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:17 AM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> This is a genuine discussion, which IMHO shouldn't be offlist.  If
>>> someone came and wanted to give mongodb tutorials, I clearly wouldn't
>>> mind.  However, the fact that it is an employee of mongodb sets a different
>>> bar for me -- an employee using nb resources for further corporate
>>> development (no matter how chic it seems to have nosql + neuroscience
>>> discussions).
>>> And Jehan, my rent-seeking *is* blatant intentionally because we are
>>> otherwise a starving community space.  A community space is not co-working
>>> space, it's not an incubator. I put my sweat and money into these spaces in
>>> order to give people access to technology production they otherwise would
>>> not have.  Which is why I bring up gentrification:  having office hours
>>> empowers mongodb and the folks that already are connected enough to
>>> understand what nosql is and why they may want to use it.  My further
>>> question is:  what would mongodb be doing to reach out to folks in our
>>> community that aren't so connected and empowered?
>>> If we let this happen, then why not host corporate apple hackathons for
>>> free in our space?  Why draw the line at open source?  Why not let popular
>>> apple host closed source API workshops in our space for free?  I suspect
>>> that for some people on this list that would be perfectly fine.
>>> Also this is a fine line --  I *do * support mutual aid of up and coming
>>> entrepreneurs. I do support giving commercial space to folks inside our
>>> community access to develop and bring their stuff to market.  I have no
>>> problems with Mitch selling his electronics at our space -- but on the same
>>> token Mitch spends hours and hours reaching out to the very poor and
>>> disconnected teaching valuable skills.  There is a big difference.
>>> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Jehan Tremback <
>>> jehan.tremback at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I'm not incredibly active at Noisebridge, so take my commentary as just
>>>> commentary, but let's think of two scenarios:
>>>> 1. People can come to Noisebridge and host QnA's about technical
>>>> topics. If they are not disruptive, no problem.
>>>> or
>>>> 2. People are judged ad-hoc for perceived political alignment (not even
>>>> actual political positions!), and then pressured to "donate" if their
>>>> character is judged to not be radical enough.
>>>> I'd like to see anyone who wants to teach people about open source code
>>>> to feel free to do that at Noisebridge without being judged against some
>>>> activist litmus test. Also, isn't it even more compromising of
>>>> Noisebridge's values to become some sort of for-charge seminar space? The
>>>> combination of radical rhetoric and rent-seeking is rather blatant, and
>>>> somewhat offputting.
>>>> -Jehan
>>>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 10:16 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Hey folks,
>>>>> In the interest of not blocking anyone and getting more expedited,
>>>>> I've taken this offlist.  If I come across as abrasive, I apologize - I
>>>>> know that Bryan is a great person doing very cool things, and indeed I hope
>>>>> to participate in the MongoDB sessions myself... But a corporation is a
>>>>> corporation is a profit extracting at all costs feelingless machine and it
>>>>> needs to be dealt with accordingly.
>>>>> When thinking about an appropriate donation, I'm using a formula
>>>>> something like:
>>>>>       cost per square foot  * marketing/bizdev cost modifier *
>>>>> bizdev/marketing budget modifier * hr/recruiting costs modifier *
>>>>> noisebridge premium
>>>>> We are a centrally located hackerspace attracting some of the best
>>>>> talent in the bay and the world.
>>>>> I'll do some research and plug some initial numbers in there tomorrow
>>>>> (unless anyone else has a starting point) so bryan can get everything
>>>>> calendared in ASAP.
>>>>> I've also gone ahead and cc'ed mitch and naomi,  in case they have
>>>>> input :)
>>>>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 5:43 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> I'll see you next tuesday!
>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 5:17 PM, Ronald Cotoni <setient at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Praveen, first of all hi!  Second, lets take this to a meeting or
>>>>>>> something.  This is not the place for this type of discussion.  This is
>>>>>>> also pretty drama filled right now and is basically a sore spot.  Noise
>>>>>>> bridge is ultimately a maker space and a hacker space.  It is used to
>>>>>>> create amazing things with software, hardware or even non technical
>>>>>>> things.  Yes, there are some politics discussed at noise bridge and we
>>>>>>> welcome all to have rational discussions about all topics, as long as you
>>>>>>> respect those around you and treat them with excellence.   Though that
>>>>>>> happens a lot, that is clearly not our primary focus of making cool things
>>>>>>> and helping people learn to make cool things.
>>>>>>> Let's end this discussion and have both you and Bryan come either
>>>>>>> this week (short notice for me and most likely others) or next week and
>>>>>>> discuss this.  We could also plan a time that is not a Tuesday meeting so
>>>>>>> that we do not fill the meeting with this one subject if there is enough
>>>>>>> interest.  Do you feel like organizing that Praveen since you seem to have
>>>>>>> a lot of vested interest in this particular subject?  I can help
>>>>>>> facilitate.
>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 4:55 PM, Jeffrey Carl Faden <
>>>>>>> jeffreyatw at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I’m pretty sure he would. It’s not that intense, really.
>>>>>>>> Jeffrey
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 4:54 PM, 2011PIguppy2011 <
>>>>>>>> 2011PIguppy2011 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Praveen I would highly encourage you to make these statements face
>>>>>>>>> to face instead of over the internet.  It's really draining and I would be
>>>>>>>>> very surprised if you felt it was appropriate to speak to someone like that
>>>>>>>>> in person.
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 4:49 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> The issues of giving corporate free passes is centrally linked to
>>>>>>>>>> very real gentrification issues, inside and outside noisebridge.
>>>>>>>>>> Inside noisebridge:
>>>>>>>>>>     - we still don't have disabled or elderly accessible
>>>>>>>>>> environments even after years of being here.  Our members with
>>>>>>>>>> accessibility issues often have to go to great struggles to figure out if
>>>>>>>>>> they can be at the space.
>>>>>>>>>>      - we are still a monolingual environment, with our wiki
>>>>>>>>>> being english only inside a strong bilingual community
>>>>>>>>>> The list can go on about noisebridge and the immediate
>>>>>>>>>> neighborhood, like providing mesh access to the low income in the community.
>>>>>>>>>> Having cash to do such things, beyond worrying about basic rent
>>>>>>>>>> is of immense value.
>>>>>>>>>> And yet we have actors like Jehan privileging free access to a
>>>>>>>>>> cash heavy corporation because they use the AGPL in their product.  It's
>>>>>>>>>> very admirable that a company should do such a thing, but by that logic
>>>>>>>>>> would you invite Oracle in to give demos because Mysql is open source?
>>>>>>>>>> Preposterous.
>>>>>>>>>> Noisebridge is not broken.  Our job is not to attract wealth
>>>>>>>>>> people from far away places like palo alto.  We have value inside our own
>>>>>>>>>> communities, in Noisebridge, in the Mission, that we have to develop and
>>>>>>>>>> emerge to be next cutting edge.
>>>>>>>>>> In so far as politics at noisebridge -- I'm sorry but NB is an
>>>>>>>>>> explicitly political space. We host and talk about issues that are of
>>>>>>>>>> importance to hackers that include digital rights, free internet, and yes
>>>>>>>>>> gentrification and tech class divide in urban areas like the mission
>>>>>>>>>> district.  If you feel differently, I welcome you to shut down Techno
>>>>>>>>>> Activism Tuesdays and the many other projects we've hosted here.
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 20, 2015 at 10:55 PM, 2011PIguppy2011 <
>>>>>>>>>> 2011PIguppy2011 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> As far as I am concerned, free office hours are just that. I
>>>>>>>>>>> don't see the point in injecting SF city politics / hot button issues into
>>>>>>>>>>> this and I see it as blatant trolling. Noisebridge is not a
>>>>>>>>>>> political nonprofit.
>>>>>>>>>>> It would be great to have more responsible people in the space
>>>>>>>>>>> at a regular time using it to hack on tech. He said it was open office
>>>>>>>>>>> hours for whoever.
>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, July 20, 2015, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 20, 2015 at 8:24 PM, Garrett Smith <
>>>>>>>>>>>> dhtmlkitchen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > We usually announce on Twitter that we’ll be available at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the venue and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > typically expect about 10 to 12 people to drop in on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> average. Anyone with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > questions about MongoDB are welcome. I’d like to start the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> first "office
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > hours” Thursday the 23rd, from 4-6 PM.  Do you feel that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Noisebridge is an
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > appropriate please to host these small meetups?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that it's doocratic in the spirit of Noisebridge.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You'll need
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to chec the schedule for room availability of Turing or Church
>>>>>>>>>>>>> before
>>>>>>>>>>>>> booking your room by editing the wiki.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I vehemently disagree  -- MongoDB is a for profit company that
>>>>>>>>>>>> would otherwise pay top dollar to have real estate to run where it can get
>>>>>>>>>>>> mindshare for other engineers.   While I support noisebridge to support our
>>>>>>>>>>>> own community members to launch their for profit projects (for example,
>>>>>>>>>>>> mitch altman pitching his electronics), it's frankly because of companies
>>>>>>>>>>>> like MongoDB getting a free ride from the city that not only is
>>>>>>>>>>>> Noisebridge's rent going up, but everyone in the neighborhood getting
>>>>>>>>>>>> kicked out as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Noisebridge it  /community/ space - so I really have ask, what
>>>>>>>>>>>> concrete value does MongoDB add to this community?   Why not give Microsoft
>>>>>>>>>>>> or Apple free space to develop mindshare in our community?
>>>>>>>>>>>> We may need cash, and once again our non-profit status does not
>>>>>>>>>>>> allow us to have in-kind donations.  But, if you really want to play ball
>>>>>>>>>>>> with these companies, we better make our benefit very tangible and make it *a
>>>>>>>>>>>> lot*.  MongoDB would otherwise pay thousands if not tens of
>>>>>>>>>>>> thousands to have a deal somewhere else in the city.  We are a premium spot
>>>>>>>>>>>> for it, and we should make it such that even the poorest and most
>>>>>>>>>>>> unconnected of us are able to benefit from it.
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> (Sent from cellphone)
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Ronald Cotoni
>>>>>>> Systems Engineer
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss

Naomi Theora Most
naomi at nthmost.com

skype: nthmost

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