[Noisebridge-discuss] mongodb and noisebridge

Praveen Sinha dmhomee at gmail.com
Wed Jul 22 22:21:05 UTC 2015

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the best at pricing -- $500 a month
is totally fine with me!

I also want to be clear that I have no intention of putting a consensus
block or anything of the like on Bryan or anyone.  I just want this issue
discussed in the community before something similar next time as well.

On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Harry Moreno <morenoh149 at gmail.com> wrote:

> so for 1 meetup per week this would be $*2000*/month?
> I tried calculating something referencing
> http://www.evenues.com/Meeting-Spaces/San%20Francisco/California/?id=106f69d5-42c4-42fa-b797-2d8ef6ce92cf
> at $*50*/hour.
> For 4 2-hour sessions per month that's $*500*/month. Keeping in mind they
> used to host these at a coffeeshop for free
> http://www.meetup.com/San-Francisco-MongoDB-User-Group/events/206109962/
> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:17 AM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:
>> This is a genuine discussion, which IMHO shouldn't be offlist.  If
>> someone came and wanted to give mongodb tutorials, I clearly wouldn't
>> mind.  However, the fact that it is an employee of mongodb sets a different
>> bar for me -- an employee using nb resources for further corporate
>> development (no matter how chic it seems to have nosql + neuroscience
>> discussions).
>> And Jehan, my rent-seeking *is* blatant intentionally because we are
>> otherwise a starving community space.  A community space is not co-working
>> space, it's not an incubator. I put my sweat and money into these spaces in
>> order to give people access to technology production they otherwise would
>> not have.  Which is why I bring up gentrification:  having office hours
>> empowers mongodb and the folks that already are connected enough to
>> understand what nosql is and why they may want to use it.  My further
>> question is:  what would mongodb be doing to reach out to folks in our
>> community that aren't so connected and empowered?
>> If we let this happen, then why not host corporate apple hackathons for
>> free in our space?  Why draw the line at open source?  Why not let popular
>> apple host closed source API workshops in our space for free?  I suspect
>> that for some people on this list that would be perfectly fine.
>> Also this is a fine line --  I *do * support mutual aid of up and coming
>> entrepreneurs. I do support giving commercial space to folks inside our
>> community access to develop and bring their stuff to market.  I have no
>> problems with Mitch selling his electronics at our space -- but on the same
>> token Mitch spends hours and hours reaching out to the very poor and
>> disconnected teaching valuable skills.  There is a big difference.
>> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Jehan Tremback <
>> jehan.tremback at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I'm not incredibly active at Noisebridge, so take my commentary as just
>>> commentary, but let's think of two scenarios:
>>> 1. People can come to Noisebridge and host QnA's about technical topics.
>>> If they are not disruptive, no problem.
>>> or
>>> 2. People are judged ad-hoc for perceived political alignment (not even
>>> actual political positions!), and then pressured to "donate" if their
>>> character is judged to not be radical enough.
>>> I'd like to see anyone who wants to teach people about open source code
>>> to feel free to do that at Noisebridge without being judged against some
>>> activist litmus test. Also, isn't it even more compromising of
>>> Noisebridge's values to become some sort of for-charge seminar space? The
>>> combination of radical rhetoric and rent-seeking is rather blatant, and
>>> somewhat offputting.
>>> -Jehan
>>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 10:16 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Hey folks,
>>>> In the interest of not blocking anyone and getting more expedited, I've
>>>> taken this offlist.  If I come across as abrasive, I apologize - I know
>>>> that Bryan is a great person doing very cool things, and indeed I hope to
>>>> participate in the MongoDB sessions myself... But a corporation is a
>>>> corporation is a profit extracting at all costs feelingless machine and it
>>>> needs to be dealt with accordingly.
>>>> When thinking about an appropriate donation, I'm using a formula
>>>> something like:
>>>>       cost per square foot  * marketing/bizdev cost modifier *
>>>> bizdev/marketing budget modifier * hr/recruiting costs modifier *
>>>> noisebridge premium
>>>> We are a centrally located hackerspace attracting some of the best
>>>> talent in the bay and the world.
>>>> I'll do some research and plug some initial numbers in there tomorrow
>>>> (unless anyone else has a starting point) so bryan can get everything
>>>> calendared in ASAP.
>>>> I've also gone ahead and cc'ed mitch and naomi,  in case they have
>>>> input :)
>>>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 5:43 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> I'll see you next tuesday!
>>>>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 5:17 PM, Ronald Cotoni <setient at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Praveen, first of all hi!  Second, lets take this to a meeting or
>>>>>> something.  This is not the place for this type of discussion.  This is
>>>>>> also pretty drama filled right now and is basically a sore spot.  Noise
>>>>>> bridge is ultimately a maker space and a hacker space.  It is used to
>>>>>> create amazing things with software, hardware or even non technical
>>>>>> things.  Yes, there are some politics discussed at noise bridge and we
>>>>>> welcome all to have rational discussions about all topics, as long as you
>>>>>> respect those around you and treat them with excellence.   Though that
>>>>>> happens a lot, that is clearly not our primary focus of making cool things
>>>>>> and helping people learn to make cool things.
>>>>>> Let's end this discussion and have both you and Bryan come either
>>>>>> this week (short notice for me and most likely others) or next week and
>>>>>> discuss this.  We could also plan a time that is not a Tuesday meeting so
>>>>>> that we do not fill the meeting with this one subject if there is enough
>>>>>> interest.  Do you feel like organizing that Praveen since you seem to have
>>>>>> a lot of vested interest in this particular subject?  I can help
>>>>>> facilitate.
>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 4:55 PM, Jeffrey Carl Faden <
>>>>>> jeffreyatw at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> I’m pretty sure he would. It’s not that intense, really.
>>>>>>> Jeffrey
>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 4:54 PM, 2011PIguppy2011 <
>>>>>>> 2011PIguppy2011 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Praveen I would highly encourage you to make these statements face
>>>>>>>> to face instead of over the internet.  It's really draining and I would be
>>>>>>>> very surprised if you felt it was appropriate to speak to someone like that
>>>>>>>> in person.
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 4:49 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> The issues of giving corporate free passes is centrally linked to
>>>>>>>>> very real gentrification issues, inside and outside noisebridge.
>>>>>>>>> Inside noisebridge:
>>>>>>>>>     - we still don't have disabled or elderly accessible
>>>>>>>>> environments even after years of being here.  Our members with
>>>>>>>>> accessibility issues often have to go to great struggles to figure out if
>>>>>>>>> they can be at the space.
>>>>>>>>>      - we are still a monolingual environment, with our wiki being
>>>>>>>>> english only inside a strong bilingual community
>>>>>>>>> The list can go on about noisebridge and the immediate
>>>>>>>>> neighborhood, like providing mesh access to the low income in the community.
>>>>>>>>> Having cash to do such things, beyond worrying about basic rent is
>>>>>>>>> of immense value.
>>>>>>>>> And yet we have actors like Jehan privileging free access to a
>>>>>>>>> cash heavy corporation because they use the AGPL in their product.  It's
>>>>>>>>> very admirable that a company should do such a thing, but by that logic
>>>>>>>>> would you invite Oracle in to give demos because Mysql is open source?
>>>>>>>>> Preposterous.
>>>>>>>>> Noisebridge is not broken.  Our job is not to attract wealth
>>>>>>>>> people from far away places like palo alto.  We have value inside our own
>>>>>>>>> communities, in Noisebridge, in the Mission, that we have to develop and
>>>>>>>>> emerge to be next cutting edge.
>>>>>>>>> In so far as politics at noisebridge -- I'm sorry but NB is an
>>>>>>>>> explicitly political space. We host and talk about issues that are of
>>>>>>>>> importance to hackers that include digital rights, free internet, and yes
>>>>>>>>> gentrification and tech class divide in urban areas like the mission
>>>>>>>>> district.  If you feel differently, I welcome you to shut down Techno
>>>>>>>>> Activism Tuesdays and the many other projects we've hosted here.
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 20, 2015 at 10:55 PM, 2011PIguppy2011 <
>>>>>>>>> 2011PIguppy2011 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> As far as I am concerned, free office hours are just that. I
>>>>>>>>>> don't see the point in injecting SF city politics / hot button issues into
>>>>>>>>>> this and I see it as blatant trolling. Noisebridge is not a
>>>>>>>>>> political nonprofit.
>>>>>>>>>> It would be great to have more responsible people in the space at
>>>>>>>>>> a regular time using it to hack on tech. He said it was open office hours
>>>>>>>>>> for whoever.
>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, July 20, 2015, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 20, 2015 at 8:24 PM, Garrett Smith <
>>>>>>>>>>> dhtmlkitchen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> > We usually announce on Twitter that we’ll be available at the
>>>>>>>>>>>> venue and
>>>>>>>>>>>> > typically expect about 10 to 12 people to drop in on average.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyone with
>>>>>>>>>>>> > questions about MongoDB are welcome. I’d like to start the
>>>>>>>>>>>> first "office
>>>>>>>>>>>> > hours” Thursday the 23rd, from 4-6 PM.  Do you feel that
>>>>>>>>>>>> Noisebridge is an
>>>>>>>>>>>> > appropriate please to host these small meetups?
>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that it's doocratic in the spirit of Noisebridge.
>>>>>>>>>>>> You'll need
>>>>>>>>>>>> to chec the schedule for room availability of Turing or Church
>>>>>>>>>>>> before
>>>>>>>>>>>> booking your room by editing the wiki.
>>>>>>>>>>> I vehemently disagree  -- MongoDB is a for profit company that
>>>>>>>>>>> would otherwise pay top dollar to have real estate to run where it can get
>>>>>>>>>>> mindshare for other engineers.   While I support noisebridge to support our
>>>>>>>>>>> own community members to launch their for profit projects (for example,
>>>>>>>>>>> mitch altman pitching his electronics), it's frankly because of companies
>>>>>>>>>>> like MongoDB getting a free ride from the city that not only is
>>>>>>>>>>> Noisebridge's rent going up, but everyone in the neighborhood getting
>>>>>>>>>>> kicked out as well.
>>>>>>>>>>> Noisebridge it  /community/ space - so I really have ask, what
>>>>>>>>>>> concrete value does MongoDB add to this community?   Why not give Microsoft
>>>>>>>>>>> or Apple free space to develop mindshare in our community?
>>>>>>>>>>> We may need cash, and once again our non-profit status does not
>>>>>>>>>>> allow us to have in-kind donations.  But, if you really want to play ball
>>>>>>>>>>> with these companies, we better make our benefit very tangible and make it *a
>>>>>>>>>>> lot*.  MongoDB would otherwise pay thousands if not tens of
>>>>>>>>>>> thousands to have a deal somewhere else in the city.  We are a premium spot
>>>>>>>>>>> for it, and we should make it such that even the poorest and most
>>>>>>>>>>> unconnected of us are able to benefit from it.
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> (Sent from cellphone)
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Ronald Cotoni
>>>>>> Systems Engineer
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
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