Chemical safety (was: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] darkroom at the noisebridge space)

[Mark Cohen]

Replies in line.

On Oct 3, 2008, at 2:30 PM, Audrey Penven wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 2:13 PM, Mark Cohen <markc at binaryfaith.com>  
> wrote:
>> Comments in line :
>>
>> On Oct 3, 2008, at 1:00 PM, Seth David Schoen wrote:
>>
>>> Audrey Penven writes:
>>>
>>>> We'll need to figure out the details of each chemical process that
>>>> will happen in the space.  I imagine that some of them will be
>>>> compatible, use the same chemicals, and otherwise coexist nicely.
>>>> Some of them, not so much.  We can make sure to have a bunch of  
>>>> trays
>>>> on hand, labeled with the chemical bath they can hold.
>>>>
>>>> As far as disposal goes - regular developer and stop baths can be
>>>> mixed together and poured down the drain safely.  Fixer needs more
>>>> care.  I believe that Rayko takes used fixer and recycles it for a
>>>> fee.  I'll find out the details of this.
>>>
>>> This reminds me of safety questions that I had about both the  
>>> darkroom
>>> and chemistry lab.  I guess that the same safety questions apply  
>>> to each
>>> since each will be using some chemicals that may have safety  
>>> concerns.
>>> So I think I'll take this opportunity to write up all the safety
>>> questions that I've thought about so far:
>>>
>>> (1) segregation of chemicals and food
>>>
>>> We have some food preparation space and a stove that people are
>>> apparently planning to use on occasion for preparing and eating in  
>>> the
>>> space.  What do we need to do to minimize the risk that the food
>>> preparation space becomes contaminated with materials used for  
>>> chemistry
>>> or photographic work?  (One particular issue is about the sink,  
>>> which
>>> I'll break out into another point:)
>>>
>>
>> Though black and white chemistry is not especially toxic,  
>> (Developer is not
>> classified as toxic but often is an allergic compound for some,  
>> causing skin
>> irritation, stop bath (usually Glacial Acetic Acid), and fixer  
>> (Sodium,
>> Potassium or Ammonium Thiosulfate is fine when fresh, but contains  
>> high
>> amounts of silver when used and soluble silver will make you look  
>> like a
>> smurf) The biggest concerns would be with toners. Selenium toner is
>> extremely dangerous and needs to be handled with great care. As  
>> with all
>> things, general common sense and keeping food away is smart.
>>
>> Here is the Kodak MSDS site.
>> http://www.kodak.com/eknec/PageQuerier.jhtml?pq-path=4648&pq-locale=en_US&_requestid=1925
>>
>> Obviously, this is for basic B&W.
>>
>> Color chemistry is significantly more harmful and alternative  
>> processes even
>> more. (For example Daguerrotypes were developed in Mercury Oxide  
>> vapor, the
>> vapor is even worse for you than drinking the stuff.)
>>
>
> I've never used toners, so I'm not familiar with the safety
> requirements for them.  If you've used them before, and plan on
> bringing them to the space, it would be great if you could help the
> rest of us do it safely.  :)
> Rayko Photo Center (3rd + Harrison) disposes of Selenium with a fee
> per ounce.  If we use it, we'll need to store it properly and then
> bring it over there to get rid of it.
>
> Regarding skin irritation: I've never had a problem with that and
> therefore hadn't thought of it.  It would be a good idea to have
> gloves (reusable or a box of disposable latex) to use in the darkroom.


I've done a lot with toners (especially Selenium). I do my selenium  
toning outside because of the fresh air. The toner smells like ammonia  
when it is used (chemically reacting with the silver in the print), it  
isn't a strong smell, but I prefer to be safe. A lot of people use  
respirators when they tone. The major problem with this particular  
toner is skin contact. You want to use gloves and tongs while toning  
with this.

The other toners I've used have been blue and sepia. Both are non  
toxic and can be done anywhere.

Generally, selenium toner is diluted (1:5, 1:10, 1:20) with water, so  
it isn't really highly concentrated unless you are split toning. This  
makes storage and disposal easy. You can pour your used toner into a  
storage container and let it sit until you dispose it. I think taking  
it down to Rayko is awesome.

Regarding skin irritation, it is one of those things that doesn't  
affect very many people. Those with dermatitis should be especially  
careful. I've often used my hands instead of tongs to agitate prints  
in developer and have never had a reaction.. That doesn't mean that  
someone else can do that with the same luck. That is why I bring up  
the safety thing. :)



>
>
>>
>>> (2) safe storage and disposal of chemicals
>>>
>>> What do we need to do to ensure that we store and dispose of  
>>> chemicals
>>> safely?  If the kitchen sink is going to be used for food  
>>> preparation
>>> and washing dishes, it should probably not be used for chemical  
>>> disposal
>>> even for some chemicals that could otherwise legally be disposed  
>>> of this
>>> way.  Should we install a separate sink or other facilities for  
>>> chemical
>>> disposal or washing glassware and photo trays?
>>>
>>
>> The only chemical you are required to handle properly in disposal  
>> is fixer.
>> Both Developer and Stop can be dumped down drains. Large amounts of  
>> Fixer
>> can't and the city regularly tests the disposed water for high  
>> amounts of
>> fixer/silver salts.
>>
>> You can safely pour dev/stop down into a toilet.
>>
>> Some photolabs allow people to dispose of used fixer on their  
>> premises for a
>> fee. Similar to waste motor oil.. Or you can pay safety clean (sp?)  
>> to
>> dispose of it for you.
>
> I'm pretty sure that Rayko will also take used fixer.  I'll ask next
> time I go over there (probably later today).

Rayko likely,  as most labs will take your fixer, they reclaim the  
silver.

>
>
>>
>>> (3) ventilation
>>>
>>> Meredith has been working on planning a fume hood for chemistry  
>>> work.
>>> Does the darkroom also need special ventilation arrangements in  
>>> order
>>> to protect people working there (or elsewhere in the space)?
>>>
>>> What prevents fumes captured by the fume hood from exiting back into
>>> the space through the kitchen stove vent intake?
>>>
>>> Does the fishbowl room or other parts of the space require  
>>> particular
>>> ventilation for safety apart from the fume hood?  (Especially if
>>> particular equipment ... like soldering irons ... may produce  
>>> various
>>> kinds of fumes.)
>>>
>>
>> Film development can be done out of a darkroom. The tanks are  
>> (hopefully)
>> light tight. The only exception is for those developing 4x5 or  
>> larger where
>> you use an open tub and hangers. For standard roll development no
>> ventilation is necessary.
>>
>> For developing paper (i.e. prints) a ceiling fan (bathroom style)  
>> would be
>> more than adequate.
>>
>> Toning should be done out of the darkroom and in fresh air.
>>
>>
>>> (4) training
>>>
>>> Further to a note on Talk:Safety by Shannon Clark, should there be  
>>> some
>>> kind of training or briefing that people have to do before they can
>>> start using particular materials or equipment?  (This applies to  
>>> _all_
>>> tools and equipment in the space, not just chemicals!)  Shannon  
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> a thought, should we have some system akin to how TechShop handles
>>> letting people use certain types of tools (i.e. in our case  
>>> chemistry,
>>> perhaps the darkroom, perhaps soldering tools) of only after they  
>>> have
>>> taken a course on Safety and Basic Usage (which in TechShop's case  
>>> is
>>> usually 1hr long)? --Shannonclark 23:42, 1 October 2008 (PDT)
>>
>> I would be more than happy to give trainings/classes.
>>
>> Previously to being a systems admin, my professional career was  
>> working at
>> pro photo labs in southern california, my degree is in photography  
>> from
>> CCA(c) and I used to volunteer with Harvey Milk Photo Center. :)
>>
>> Mark
>>
>
> Very cool!  I'm happy that you're also willing to teach.  :)
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Seth David Schoen <schoen at loyalty.org> | Wol dir, werlt, daz du bist
>>>   http://www.loyalty.org/~schoen/   | also freudenriche!
>>>   http://vitanuova.loyalty.org/     |           -- Carmina Burana
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>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>
>>