[Noisebridge-discuss] Proposal: Discounted full-year dues
Daniel C. Silverstein
cubes at ghosthacked.net
Wed Jun 16 22:59:43 UTC 2010
Just as an FYI, I think the fundraiser idea is great, but it may not
be the best timing. It's Burning Man theme camp fundraising season so
you'll have a lot of competition for the next few months. Better to
put it off until after the burn IMO.
(Dan)
On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Sean Cusack <sean.p.cusack at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey peeps -
>
> This may be a stupid question, but is the problem that:
>
> A) People are members, but not paying dues every month, or
> B) There aren't enough members to support the monthly noisebridge expenses
>
> Because if the answer is B, wouldn't paying for memberships up front not
> really help the underlying problem that we are spending more than we're
> bringing in? If the problem is A, then I like the propositions :).
>
> Also, as a pusher of using our talents for the outside world as well, should
> we consider doing some kind of fund-raiser to the external world a la
> burning man camps? I don't know how well these do overall, but it may be a
> good way to get a couple months of rent banked kind of quickly to get us
> away from the crunch and back into the safe green zone. If someone has a
> good idea and needs more manpower, I'd be thrilled to help out.
>
> Sean
>
> On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 3:44 PM, Christie Dudley <longobord at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Another question that is worth considering...
>> Does Noisebridge have any interest-bearing accounts? If so, any interest
>> we earn on these accounts would easily offset discounts awarded for advance
>> payment. If not... don't you think we should if we're keeping 3-6 months
>> operating expenses in the bank?
>> Christie
>> _______
>> "Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The
>> latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to
>> hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
>> -- Albert Einstein
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 3:14 PM, jim <jim at well.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> feature suggestion: maybe the tracking system can
>>> reward for advance payments, per the 2% or such idea--
>>> increase the discount according to how far ahead one
>>> has paid.
>>> feature deprecation: there's a downside to rewarding
>>> advance payment in the case of members who stick around:
>>> it's less money overall (shannon's observation re
>>> members who might not stick around is a counterbalance).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 2010-06-16 at 15:04 -0700, Rachel McConnell wrote:
>>> > I think that ensuring that each member pays their dues, at least
>>> > mostly,
>>> > is the solution that will work for the entire group in the long run. I
>>> > don't think people are consciously blowing us off, i think they simply
>>> > forget, and then six months later they are like, oh, i paid ... a
>>> > little
>>> > while ago? I think? So I believe the first need is a system that
>>> > tracks who has paid their dues and (ideally automatically) emails
>>> > people
>>> > with a reminder periodically until they have paid. After we do that we
>>> > can see if we need to put in any kinds of discounts.
>>> >
>>> > (Leif, a percentage discount over a whole year, paid at once, is more
>>> > money than N (<12) monthly payments and a big OOPS-I-FORGOT.)
>>> >
>>> > I've pinged Hackerdojo to ask about their system which Christie
>>> > mentioned. I will volunteer to evaluate that, if possible, and report
>>> > back. Will someone else evaluate Miah's suggestion of Salesforce, and
>>> > maybe a third person evaluate the suggestion I also saw which was
>>> > bottom
>>> > posted, an hour or two ago?
>>> >
>>> > My take on the requirements for such a system are:
>>> >
>>> > * can track dues payments by member identifier (alias, email address,
>>> > whatever anonymous key we want)
>>> > * can automatically email those who are N days late
>>> > * is easy for the treasurer to keep up to date
>>> >
>>> > Rachel
>>> >
>>> > aestetix aestetix wrote:
>>> > > I don't think it's really fair to qualify whether a group is alive or
>>> > > dead based on financial numbers. It's more of a mentality and
>>> > > motivation
>>> > > of the people. If a group is in danger for whatever reason, be it
>>> > > financial, political, or anything else, having a call to bring people
>>> > > together to save the group proves that it's alive and well.
>>> > >
>>> > > It's just like my teacher used to say during the Iraq War debate:
>>> > > lots
>>> > > of bickering about what should be done actually means there are a lot
>>> > > of
>>> > > people who care. I think rather than fingerpointing and ensuring each
>>> > > member pays their dues, we should band together, help each other out
>>> > > where we can, and figure out a solution that works for the entire
>>> > > group
>>> > > in the long term.
>>> > >
>>> > > aestetix
>>> > >
>>> > > PS: I am not a communist.
>>> > >
>>> > > On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 2:30 PM, jim <jim at well.com
>>> > > <mailto:jim at well.com>> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > there's a difference between dying and dead, too.
>>> > > general rule of thumb is to have about six months
>>> > > expenses in the bank and start panicking when it
>>> > > gets down to three. time to panic, according to
>>> > > the general rule.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > On Wed, 2010-06-16 at 12:40 -0700, aestetix aestetix wrote:
>>> > > > Are we actually in the red?
>>> > > >
>>> > > > There's a big difference between not having a few months
>>> > > wiggleroom,
>>> > > > and having our checks bounce.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 11:56 AM, Rachel McConnell
>>> > > <rachel at xtreme.com <mailto:rachel at xtreme.com>>
>>> > > > wrote:
>>> > > > oooh I had no idea! yeah i'll get in touch with them
>>> > > right
>>> > > > away. i did
>>> > > > search various open source repos and found nothing
>>> > > useful...
>>> > > >
>>> > > > Christie Dudley wrote:
>>> > > > > Katie from Hacker Dojo was mentioning they'd put
>>> > > together a
>>> > > > complete
>>> > > > > open source package for managing things, including
>>> > > payment
>>> > > > tracking and
>>> > > > > so forth that they're interested in sharing. It
>>> > > might not
>>> > > > be a bad
>>> > > > > idea, and foster a bit of goodwill if we at least had
>>> > > a look
>>> > > > at that,
>>> > > > > don't you think?
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > The problem may already be solved for us.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > Christie
>>> > > > > _______
>>> > > > > "Great spirits have always found violent opposition
>>> > > from
>>> > > > mediocrities.
>>> > > > > The latter cannot understand it when a man does not
>>> > > > thoughtlessly submit
>>> > > > > to hereditary prejudices but honestly and
>>> > > courageously uses
>>> > > > his
>>> > > > > intelligence." -- Albert Einstein
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 11:10 AM, Rachel McConnell
>>> > > > <rachel at xtreme.com <mailto:rachel at xtreme.com>
>>> > > >
>>> > > >
>>> > > > > <mailto:rachel at xtreme.com
>>> > > <mailto:rachel at xtreme.com>>>
>>> > > wrote:
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > It's all done by hand right now, there's no
>>> > > automation.
>>> > > > I mean the bank
>>> > > > > account (and paypal, etc) tracks that $X has
>>> > > shown up,
>>> > > > but there isn't
>>> > > > > any system to associate it with a particular
>>> > > member.
>>> > > > Sometimes a
>>> > > > > payment comes with a note; if it's a check you
>>> > > have to
>>> > > > go look at the
>>> > > > > name on the check, etc.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > jim wrote:
>>> > > > > > Y'all have reminded me of payment, so there
>>> > > must
>>> > > > > > be some tracking in place, yes?
>>> > > > > >
>>> > > > > >
>>> > > > > >
>>> > > > > > On Wed, 2010-06-16 at 10:29 -0700, Rachel
>>> > > McConnell
>>> > > > wrote:
>>> > > > > >> I like this in theory but in practice it would
>>> > > be
>>> > > > folly to officially
>>> > > > > >> promote it until we have an accounting system
>>> > > that
>>> > > > can support it.
>>> > > > > >> Already we don't know who is paid up and who
>>> > > isn't;
>>> > > > work is
>>> > > > > underway on
>>> > > > > >> a system to manage this but let's get it
>>> > > working
>>> > > > first before we make
>>> > > > > >> massive changes to it.
>>> > > > > >>
>>> > > > > >> Rachel
>>> > > > > >>
>>> > > > > >> jim wrote:
>>> > > > > >>> (seems like a discussion of policy.)
>>> > > > > >>> per the proposal and the points:
>>> > > > > >>> * how much to discount for a one year
>>> > > pre-payment
>>> > > > seems
>>> > > > > >>> the difficult part: too little and no one
>>> > > goes for
>>> > > > it;
>>> > > > > >>> too big and we miss out on possible income;
>>> > > variable
>>> > > > > >>> (maybe within some limits, hoping for
>>> > > generosity)
>>> > > > may
>>> > > > > >>> work....
>>> > > > > >>> * if we don't have a "real accounting
>>> > > system", as
>>> > > > long
>>> > > > > >>> as we can track payments with respect to
>>> > > members,
>>> > > > this
>>> > > > > >>> seems a non-issue. for example, i pay by the
>>> > > quarter
>>> > > > > >>> and haven't had any problems. if a payment is
>>> > > > recorded
>>> > > > > >>> as income for the current month, is there a
>>> > > tax
>>> > > > > >>> implication?
>>> > > > > >>> * we should certainly try to help our current
>>> > > cash
>>> > > > > >>> crunch"; the overall downward trend scares
>>> > > me.
>>> > > > > >>> * grabbing a year's supply of money may help
>>> > > the
>>> > > > > >>> initially excited retain their interest over
>>> > > a
>>> > > > longer
>>> > > > > >>> time period, which seems an additional value.
>>> > > > > >>> * i'm not convinced of your arithmetic, but
>>> > > > certainly
>>> > > > > >>> money today is worth a fair amount more than
>>> > > money
>>> > > > > >>> some later day, especially if there's some
>>> > > question
>>> > > > > >>> about getting money on those later days. a
>>> > > real
>>> > > > > >>> answer to this might help settle the discount
>>> > > > problem.
>>> > > > > >>>
>>> > > > > >>>
>>> > > > > >>>
>>> > > > > >>>
>>> > > > > >>> On Wed, 2010-06-16 at 09:49 -0700, Shannon
>>> > > Lee
>>> > > > wrote:
>>> > > > > >>>> Hi All,
>>> > > > > >>>> This idea has been brought up at several
>>> > > meetings
>>> > > > now and no
>>> > > > > >>>> satisfactory resolution reached, so
>>> > > obviously it's
>>> > > > time to
>>> > > > > expand the
>>> > > > > >>>> conversation!
>>> > > > > >>>> The specific proposal brought up last night
>>> > > was
>>> > > > this:
>>> > > > > >>>> If you pay your dues a year at a time, you
>>> > > can
>>> > > > knock $20 off.
>>> > > > > Or one
>>> > > > > >>>> month's dues off. Or some amount of money.
>>> > > > > >>>> Many perspectives were voiced on this. I
>>> > > think
>>> > > > it's a good idea;
>>> > > > > >>>> others disagreed, primarily because, as we
>>> > > do not
>>> > > > have a real
>>> > > > > >>>> accounting system, this amounts to counting
>>> > > a
>>> > > > year's dues as this
>>> > > > > >>>> month's revenue.
>>> > > > > >>>> Again, I think this is a good idea, for the
>>> > > > following reasons:
>>> > > > > >>>> * it could help with our current cash cruch
>>> > > > > >>>> * it means that people who get very excited
>>> > > about
>>> > > > noisebridge
>>> > > > > for just
>>> > > > > >>>> long enough to be members and then never
>>> > > show up
>>> > > > again have the
>>> > > > > >>>> opportunity to pay a whole year's membership
>>> > > > upfront
>>> > > > > >>>> * the economic value of a bird in one's hand
>>> > > is
>>> > > > double that of
>>> > > > > a bird
>>> > > > > >>>> in a bush
>>> > > > > >>>> Thoughts?
>>> > > > > >>>> --
>>> > > > > >>>> Shannon Lee
>>> > > > > >>>> (503) 539-3700
>>> > > > > >>>>
>>> > > > > >>>> "Any sufficiently analyzed magic is
>>> > > > indistinguishable from
>>> > > > > science."
>>> > > > > >>>>
>>> > > _______________________________________________
>>> > > > > >>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>> > > > > >>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
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>>> > > >
>>> > > > > <mailto:Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>> > > <mailto:Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>>
>>> > > > > >>>>
>>> > > >
>>> > > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>> > > > > >>>
>>> > > > > >>>
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>>> > > <mailto:Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>>
>>> > > > > >>>
>>> > > >
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>>> > > > > >
>>> > > > > >
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>>> > > > >
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