[Noisebridge-discuss] Proposal: Discounted full-year dues

Rachel McConnell rachel at xtreme.com
Wed Jun 16 23:32:00 UTC 2010


We don't do a fundraiser every 6 months because nobody has decided to
organize one.  Someone could!  But not me.

Miah Johnson wrote:
> I've never understood why Noisebridge just doesn't do a fundraiser every
> 6 months or so. Considering NB provides a location for many burners to
> work on projects year-round I don't see it being a big deal to throw the
> party during "theme camp fundraising season".
> 
> Additionally, when parties/events are thrown, or people are in town for
> <big event> I don't think Noisebridge is doing enough to remind visitors
> that it is funded by donations and membership dues. Do donations get any
> type of useful data? How much does NB make in donations in <month>, or
> at <event>? 5mof tends to fill the house, does NB end up making any
> additional money?
> 
> -Miah
> 
> On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 3:59 PM, Daniel C. Silverstein
> <cubes at ghosthacked.net <mailto:cubes at ghosthacked.net>> wrote:
> 
>     Just as an FYI, I think the fundraiser idea is great, but it may not
>     be the best timing.  It's Burning Man theme camp fundraising season so
>     you'll have a lot of competition for the next few months.  Better to
>     put it off until after the burn IMO.
> 
>     (Dan)
> 
>     On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Sean Cusack
>     <sean.p.cusack at gmail.com <mailto:sean.p.cusack at gmail.com>> wrote:
>     > Hey peeps -
>     >
>     > This may be a stupid question, but is the problem that:
>     >
>     > A) People are members, but not paying dues every month, or
>     > B) There aren't enough members to support the monthly noisebridge
>     expenses
>     >
>     > Because if the answer is B, wouldn't paying for memberships up
>     front not
>     > really help the underlying problem that we are spending more than
>     we're
>     > bringing in? If the problem is A, then I like the propositions :).
>     >
>     > Also, as a pusher of using our talents for the outside world as
>     well, should
>     > we consider doing some kind of fund-raiser to the external world a la
>     > burning man camps? I don't know how well these do overall, but it
>     may be a
>     > good way to get a couple months of rent banked kind of quickly to
>     get us
>     > away from the crunch and back into the safe green zone. If someone
>     has a
>     > good idea and needs more manpower, I'd be thrilled to help out.
>     >
>     > Sean
>     >
>     > On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 3:44 PM, Christie Dudley
>     <longobord at gmail.com <mailto:longobord at gmail.com>>
>     > wrote:
>     >>
>     >> Another question that is worth considering...
>     >> Does Noisebridge have any interest-bearing accounts?  If so, any
>     interest
>     >> we earn on these accounts would easily offset discounts awarded
>     for advance
>     >> payment.  If not... don't you think we should if we're keeping
>     3-6 months
>     >> operating expenses in the bank?
>     >> Christie
>     >> _______
>     >> "Great spirits have always found violent opposition from
>     mediocrities. The
>     >> latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly
>     submit to
>     >> hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his
>     intelligence."
>     >> -- Albert Einstein
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 3:14 PM, jim <jim at well.com
>     <mailto:jim at well.com>> wrote:
>     >>>
>     >>>   feature suggestion: maybe the tracking system can
>     >>> reward for advance payments, per the 2% or such idea--
>     >>> increase the discount according to how far ahead one
>     >>> has paid.
>     >>>   feature deprecation: there's a downside to rewarding
>     >>> advance payment in the case of members who stick around:
>     >>> it's less money overall (shannon's observation re
>     >>> members who might not stick around is a counterbalance).
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>>
>     >>> On Wed, 2010-06-16 at 15:04 -0700, Rachel McConnell wrote:
>     >>> > I think that ensuring that each member pays their dues, at least
>     >>> > mostly,
>     >>> > is the solution that will work for the entire group in the
>     long run.  I
>     >>> > don't think people are consciously blowing us off, i think
>     they simply
>     >>> > forget, and then six months later they are like, oh, i paid ... a
>     >>> > little
>     >>> > while ago?  I think?  So I believe the first need is a system that
>     >>> > tracks who has paid their dues and (ideally automatically) emails
>     >>> > people
>     >>> > with a reminder periodically until they have paid.  After we
>     do that we
>     >>> > can see if we need to put in any kinds of discounts.
>     >>> >
>     >>> > (Leif, a percentage discount over a whole year, paid at once,
>     is more
>     >>> > money than N (<12) monthly payments and a big OOPS-I-FORGOT.)
>     >>> >
>     >>> > I've pinged Hackerdojo to ask about their system which Christie
>     >>> > mentioned.  I will volunteer to evaluate that, if possible,
>     and report
>     >>> > back.  Will someone else evaluate Miah's suggestion of
>     Salesforce, and
>     >>> > maybe a third person evaluate the suggestion I also saw which was
>     >>> > bottom
>     >>> > posted, an hour or two ago?
>     >>> >
>     >>> > My take on the requirements for such a system are:
>     >>> >
>     >>> > * can track dues payments by member identifier (alias, email
>     address,
>     >>> > whatever anonymous key we want)
>     >>> > * can automatically email those who are N days late
>     >>> > * is easy for the treasurer to keep up to date
>     >>> >
>     >>> > Rachel
>     >>> >
>     >>> > aestetix aestetix wrote:
>     >>> > > I don't think it's really fair to qualify whether a group is
>     alive or
>     >>> > > dead based on financial numbers. It's more of a mentality and
>     >>> > > motivation
>     >>> > > of the people. If a group is in danger for whatever reason,
>     be it
>     >>> > > financial, political, or anything else, having a call to
>     bring people
>     >>> > > together to save the group proves that it's alive and well.
>     >>> > >
>     >>> > > It's just like my teacher used to say during the Iraq War
>     debate:
>     >>> > > lots
>     >>> > > of bickering about what should be done actually means there
>     are a lot
>     >>> > > of
>     >>> > > people who care. I think rather than fingerpointing and
>     ensuring each
>     >>> > > member pays their dues, we should band together, help each
>     other out
>     >>> > > where we can, and figure out a solution that works for the
>     entire
>     >>> > > group
>     >>> > > in the long term.
>     >>> > >
>     >>> > > aestetix
>     >>> > >
>     >>> > > PS: I am not a communist.
>     >>> > >
>     >>> > > On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 2:30 PM, jim <jim at well.com
>     <mailto:jim at well.com>
>     >>> > > <mailto:jim at well.com <mailto:jim at well.com>>> wrote:
>     >>> > >
>     >>> > >
>     >>> > >
>     >>> > >     there's a difference between dying and dead, too.
>     >>> > >     general rule of thumb is to have about six months
>     >>> > >     expenses in the bank and start panicking when it
>     >>> > >     gets down to three. time to panic, according to
>     >>> > >     the general rule.
>     >>> > >
>     >>> > >
>     >>> > >
>     >>> > >     On Wed, 2010-06-16 at 12:40 -0700, aestetix aestetix wrote:
>     >>> > >     > Are we actually in the red?
>     >>> > >     >
>     >>> > >     > There's a big difference between not having a few months
>     >>> > > wiggleroom,
>     >>> > >     > and having our checks bounce.
>     >>> > >     >
>     >>> > >     > On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 11:56 AM, Rachel McConnell
>     >>> > >     <rachel at xtreme.com <mailto:rachel at xtreme.com>
>     <mailto:rachel at xtreme.com <mailto:rachel at xtreme.com>>>
>     >>> > >     > wrote:
>     >>> > >     >         oooh I had no idea!  yeah i'll get in touch
>     with them
>     >>> > > right
>     >>> > >     >         away.  i did
>     >>> > >     >         search various open source repos and found nothing
>     >>> > > useful...
>     >>> > >     >
>     >>> > >     >         Christie Dudley wrote:
>     >>> > >     >         > Katie from Hacker Dojo was mentioning they'd put
>     >>> > > together a
>     >>> > >     >         complete
>     >>> > >     >         > open source package for managing things,
>     including
>     >>> > > payment
>     >>> > >     >         tracking and
>     >>> > >     >         > so forth that they're interested in sharing.  It
>     >>> > > might not
>     >>> > >     >         be a bad
>     >>> > >     >         > idea, and foster a bit of goodwill if we at
>     least had
>     >>> > > a look
>     >>> > >     >         at that,
>     >>> > >     >         > don't you think?
>     >>> > >     >         >
>     >>> > >     >         > The problem may already be solved for us.
>     >>> > >     >         >
>     >>> > >     >         > Christie
>     >>> > >     >         > _______
>     >>> > >     >         > "Great spirits have always found violent
>     opposition
>     >>> > > from
>     >>> > >     >         mediocrities.
>     >>> > >     >         > The latter cannot understand it when a man
>     does not
>     >>> > >     >         thoughtlessly submit
>     >>> > >     >         > to hereditary prejudices but honestly and
>     >>> > > courageously uses
>     >>> > >     >         his
>     >>> > >     >         > intelligence." -- Albert Einstein
>     >>> > >     >         >
>     >>> > >     >         >
>     >>> > >     >         > On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 11:10 AM, Rachel
>     McConnell
>     >>> > >     >         <rachel at xtreme.com <mailto:rachel at xtreme.com>
>     <mailto:rachel at xtreme.com <mailto:rachel at xtreme.com>>
>     >>> > >     >
>     >>> > >     >
>     >>> > >     >         > <mailto:rachel at xtreme.com
>     <mailto:rachel at xtreme.com>
>     >>> > > <mailto:rachel at xtreme.com <mailto:rachel at xtreme.com>>>>
>     >>> > >     wrote:
>     >>> > >     >         >
>     >>> > >     >         >     It's all done by hand right now, there's no
>     >>> > > automation.
>     >>> > >     >          I mean the bank
>     >>> > >     >         >     account (and paypal, etc) tracks that $X has
>     >>> > > shown up,
>     >>> > >     >         but there isn't
>     >>> > >     >         >     any system to associate it with a particular
>     >>> > > member.
>     >>> > >     >          Sometimes a
>     >>> > >     >         >     payment comes with a note; if it's a
>     check you
>     >>> > > have to
>     >>> > >     >         go look at the
>     >>> > >     >         >     name on the check, etc.
>     >>> > >     >         >
>     >>> > >     >         >     jim wrote:
>     >>> > >     >         >     >    Y'all have reminded me of payment,
>     so there
>     >>> > > must
>     >>> > >     >         >     > be some tracking in place, yes?
>     >>> > >     >         >     >
>     >>> > >     >         >     >
>     >>> > >     >         >     >
>     >>> > >     >         >     > On Wed, 2010-06-16 at 10:29 -0700, Rachel
>     >>> > > McConnell
>     >>> > >     >         wrote:
>     >>> > >     >         >     >> I like this in theory but in practice
>     it would
>     >>> > > be
>     >>> > >     >         folly to officially
>     >>> > >     >         >     >> promote it until we have an
>     accounting system
>     >>> > > that
>     >>> > >     >         can support it.
>     >>> > >     >         >     >> Already we don't know who is paid up
>     and who
>     >>> > > isn't;
>     >>> > >     >         work is
>     >>> > >     >         >     underway on
>     >>> > >     >         >     >> a system to manage this but let's get it
>     >>> > > working
>     >>> > >     >         first before we make
>     >>> > >     >         >     >> massive changes to it.
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>
>     >>> > >     >         >     >> Rachel
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>
>     >>> > >     >         >     >> jim wrote:
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>    (seems like a discussion of policy.)
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>    per the proposal and the points:
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>> * how much to discount for a one year
>     >>> > > pre-payment
>     >>> > >     >         seems
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>> the difficult part: too little and
>     no one
>     >>> > > goes for
>     >>> > >     >         it;
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>> too big and we miss out on possible
>     income;
>     >>> > > variable
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>> (maybe within some limits, hoping for
>     >>> > > generosity)
>     >>> > >     >         may
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>> work....
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>> * if we don't have a "real accounting
>     >>> > > system", as
>     >>> > >     >         long
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>> as we can track payments with respect to
>     >>> > > members,
>     >>> > >     >         this
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>> seems a non-issue. for example, i
>     pay by the
>     >>> > > quarter
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>> and haven't had any problems. if a
>     payment is
>     >>> > >     >         recorded
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>> as income for the current month, is
>     there a
>     >>> > > tax
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>> implication?
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>> * we should certainly try to help
>     our current
>     >>> > > cash
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>> crunch"; the overall downward trend
>     scares
>     >>> > > me.
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>> * grabbing a year's supply of money
>     may help
>     >>> > > the
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>> initially excited retain their
>     interest over
>     >>> > > a
>     >>> > >     >         longer
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>> time period, which seems an
>     additional value.
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>> * i'm not convinced of your
>     arithmetic, but
>     >>> > >     >         certainly
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>> money today is worth a fair amount
>     more than
>     >>> > > money
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>> some later day, especially if
>     there's some
>     >>> > > question
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>> about getting money on those later
>     days. a
>     >>> > > real
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>> answer to this might help settle the
>     discount
>     >>> > >     >         problem.
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>> On Wed, 2010-06-16 at 09:49 -0700,
>     Shannon
>     >>> > > Lee
>     >>> > >     >         wrote:
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>> Hi All,
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>> This idea has been brought up at
>     several
>     >>> > > meetings
>     >>> > >     >         now and no
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>> satisfactory resolution reached, so
>     >>> > > obviously it's
>     >>> > >     >         time to
>     >>> > >     >         >     expand the
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>> conversation!
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>> The specific proposal brought up
>     last night
>     >>> > > was
>     >>> > >     >         this:
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>> If you pay your dues a year at a
>     time, you
>     >>> > > can
>     >>> > >     >         knock $20 off.
>     >>> > >     >         >     Or one
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>> month's dues off. Or some amount of
>     money.
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>> Many perspectives were voiced on
>     this.  I
>     >>> > > think
>     >>> > >     >         it's a good idea;
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>> others disagreed, primarily
>     because, as we
>     >>> > > do not
>     >>> > >     >         have a real
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>> accounting system, this amounts to
>     counting
>     >>> > > a
>     >>> > >     >         year's dues as this
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>> month's revenue.
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>> Again, I think this is a good idea,
>     for the
>     >>> > >     >         following reasons:
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>> * it could help with our current
>     cash cruch
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>> * it means that people who get very
>     excited
>     >>> > > about
>     >>> > >     >         noisebridge
>     >>> > >     >         >     for just
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>> long enough to be members and then
>     never
>     >>> > > show up
>     >>> > >     >         again have the
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>> opportunity to pay a whole year's
>     membership
>     >>> > >     >         upfront
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>> * the economic value of a bird in
>     one's hand
>     >>> > > is
>     >>> > >     >         double that of
>     >>> > >     >         >     a bird
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>> in a bush
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>> Thoughts?
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>> --
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>> Shannon Lee
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>> (503) 539-3700
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>>
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>> "Any sufficiently analyzed magic is
>     >>> > >     >         indistinguishable from
>     >>> > >     >         >     science."
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>>
>     >>> > > _______________________________________________
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>>
>     Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>     <mailto:Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>
>     >>> > >     <mailto:Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>     <mailto:Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>>
>     >>> > >     >
>     >>> > >     >         >    
>     <mailto:Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>     <mailto:Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>
>     >>> > >     <mailto:Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>     <mailto:Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>>>
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>>
>     >>> > >     >
>     >>> > >    
>     https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>
>     >>> > > _______________________________________________
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>
>     Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>     <mailto:Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>
>     >>> > >     <mailto:Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>     <mailto:Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>>
>     >>> > >     >
>     >>> > >     >         >    
>     <mailto:Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>     <mailto:Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>
>     >>> > >     <mailto:Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>     <mailto:Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>>>
>     >>> > >     >         >     >>>
>     >>> > >     >
>     >>> > >    
>     https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>     >>> > >     >         >     >
>     >>> > >     >         >     >
>     >>> > >     >         >    
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>     <mailto:Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>>
>     >>> > >     >
>     >>> > >     >         >    
>     <mailto:Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>     <mailto:Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>
>     >>> > >     <mailto:Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>     <mailto:Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>>>
>     >>> > >     >
>     >>> > >     >         >
>     >>> > >     >
>     >>> > >    
>     https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>     >>> > >     >         >
>     >>> > >     >         >
>     >>> > >     >         _______________________________________________
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>     <mailto:Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>>
>     >>> > >     >
>     >>> > >    
>     https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>     >>> > >     >
>     >>> > >     >
>     >>> > >     > _______________________________________________
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>     >>> > >     <mailto:Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>     <mailto:Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>>
>     >>> > >     >
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>     >>> >
>     >>>
>     >>>
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>     >>
>     >>
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