[Noisebridge-discuss] [drama] Fwd: Re: anti-anonymity proposals
davidfine
d at vidfine.com
Tue Nov 19 21:02:53 UTC 2013
Just adding the [drama] tag back.
--D
On 11/19/13, 10:44 AM, rachel lyra hospodar wrote:
>
> Perhaps you will also agree to stop sending me private emails. I do
> not want you in my inbox.
>
> I will take silence as assent.
>
> On Nov 19, 2013 10:37 AM, "jim" <jim at well.com <mailto:jim at well.com>>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Certainly. I agree.
>
>
> On Tue, 2013-11-19 at 09:54 -0800, rachel lyra hospodar wrote:
> > I'd rather that anyone who is going to be dismissive of my concerns
> > call me The Rachel Who Shall Not Be Named, TRWSNBN for short, rather
> > than a cozy little insider nickname. I am not part of your
> Noisebridge
> > anymore, jim, and so it does not make sense for you to number me
> > within its system.
> >
> > On Nov 18, 2013 3:29 PM, "jim" <jim at well.com
> <mailto:jim at well.com>> wrote:
> >
> > My recollection is that Rachel Hospodar
> > has referred to herself as Rachel 2.0. If
> > I'm mistaken, I apologize if that's what
> > she wants.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 2013-11-18 at 15:05 -0800, Rachel McConnell wrote:
> > > <headdesk/>
> > >
> > > Jim, just because I call myself Rachel1.0, does NOT MEAN
> > Rachel Hospodar
> > > is Rachel 2.0! She gets to decide herself what she
> wants to
> > be called.
> > > Jeez.
> > >
> > > On 11/18/13 1:26 PM, jim wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Rachel 2.0 is correct. I have dismissed her.
> > > > I stand by my claim that she seems to have no
> > > > idea what I've said, and because of my feeling
> > > > I believe there is no point for me to engage
> > > > discussion. It seems to me she is not open to
> > > > my wrong thoughts or my right ones.
> > > >
> > > > As to that I replied to her privately, I
> > > > prefaced my reply explaining that I did not
> > > > want to burden the list: my wish to terminate
> > > > discussion with her had no bearing on the
> > > > other discussions in the thread.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, 2013-11-18 at 12:56 -0800, rachel lyra hospodar
> > wrote:
> > > >> Here is an example of jim being dismissive on this
> > thread. He sent it
> > > >> to me privately and I was ignoring it. Full email incl
> > below.
> > > >>
> > > >>> It seems to me that you have no idea what I've said.
> > This is my last
> > > >> reply to you.
> > > >>
> > > >> I have done my best to read his emails and
> articulate why
> > my ideas are
> > > >> so different than his, why his very words were so
> wildly
> > > >> inappropriate. Given that Jim has previously hired
> me for
> > work,
> > > >> invited me to his house, and subsequently been a
> > reluctant part of a
> > > >> public discussion with me about Bad Touch And
> Respecting
> > Boundaries, I
> > > >> was perhaps expecting my viewpoint to be relevant.
> > > >>
> > > >> The problem i see is that jim believes he is being
> > misunderstood, when
> > > >> in fact he is often being understood very well. I think
> > he is
> > > >> conflating his intention with his language and with his
> > impact. They
> > > >> are three very separate things. I repeatedly see him
> > writing that he
> > > >> is being misunderstood, and repeatedly read in his
> > writing that he
> > > >> believes others are overreacting and ignoring what
> he is
> > writing.
> > > >>
> > > >> I think that many people have a cognitive block around
> > accepting that
> > > >> the impact of their words or actions was very different
> > than intended,
> > > >> or that their stated intention is often directly
> > contravened by their
> > > >> words and actions.
> > > >>
> > > >> Without the willingness to admit one's own need to
> > change, there is no
> > > >> real way to engage with people who have a problem with
> > your behavior.
> > > >>
> > > >> R.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > > >> From: "jim" <jim at systemateka.com
> <mailto:jim at systemateka.com>>
> > > >> Date: Nov 16, 2013 3:48 PM
> > > >> Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] anti-anonymity
> > proposals
> > > >> To: "rachel lyra hospodar" <rachelyra at gmail.com
> <mailto:rachelyra at gmail.com>>
> > > >> Cc:
> > > >>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> (replying personally so's not to burden
> > > >>> the list)
> > > >>>
> > > >>> It seems to me that you have no idea of what
> > > >>> I've said. This is my last reply to you.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Sat, 2013-11-16 at 14:42 -0800, rachel lyra
> hospodar
> > wrote:
> > > >>>> Responses Inline. God save us all.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On Nov 15, 2013 8:36 PM, "jim"
> <jim at systemateka.com <mailto:jim at systemateka.com>>
> > wrote:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> There are so many problems with what you
> > > >>>>>> have written that I honestly believe you need
> to hire
> > someone
> > > >> to
> > > >>>> help
> > > >>>>>> you grok what the fuck.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> I continue to believe you would benefit from seeking
> > professional
> > > >> help
> > > >>>> on this matter.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> strong community. My view is that people have run
> > > >>>>> to the community prematurely, to their own
> detriment.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Have you thought to try, instead of defending your
> > opinions, to
> > > >> query
> > > >>>> & seek to understand why people have felt that it is
> > best to act
> > > >> this
> > > >>>> way?
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> I came to Noisebridge and found a huge community of
> > > >> technically
> > > >>>>>> engaged wonderful hacker friends who bent over
> > backwards to
> > > >> teach
> > > >>>> me
> > > >>>>>> how to work in hardware, with zero social
> > expectations or
> > > >>>> assholery.
> > > >>>>> JS: me, too.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> That place is gone.
> > > >>>>> JS: I'm not sure, there are lots of very fine
> > > >>>>> people still at noisebridge.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> I AM quite sure, thankyouverymuch, because the
> > experiences I have
> > > >> had
> > > >>>> at Noisebridge over the last 2 years are so wildly
> > different than
> > > >> the
> > > >>>> previous two. Perhaps if instead of dismissing this
> > point of view
> > > >> you
> > > >>>> were to examine it and seek to understand why someone
> > might hold
> > > >> it,
> > > >>>> you would be able to become less confused about why
> > people are
> > > >>>> FREAKING THE FUCK OUT about things like BEING GRABBED
> > OR
> > > >> ASSAULTED.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>>> Perhaps 2169 will continue but a community
> where the
> > old hands
> > > >>>> present
> > > >>>>>> think assault should be dealt with in isolation,
> > > >>>>> JS: assault should not be dealt with in isolation.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> and the old hands absent feel entitled to weigh in
> > against
> > > >> reform
> > > >>>>>> measures aimed at REDUCING INCIDENCES OF ASSAULT
> > without
> > > >>>> constructive
> > > >>>>>> input, is no place I want to support.
> > > >>>>> JS: I'm against formality in general; I'm for
> > > >>>>> collaboration, affection, acceptance, mutual
> > > >>>>> support; I think having policies is a dangerous
> > > >>>>> practice, partly because the fact of the policy
> > > >>>>> substitutes for understanding and action
> > > >>>>> appropriate to situations, partly because the
> > > >>>>> policy may, unfortunately, be seen as a
> > > >>>>> substitute for one's own action and one's own
> > > >>>>> sense of self-worth.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Instead of undermining the efforts of people
> seeking to
> > SECURE
> > > >> THEIR
> > > >>>> PERSONAL SAFETY you could try to work towards
> building
> > the kind of
> > > >>>> understanding you say should be used instead of
> > policies... then
> > > >>>> perhaps there wouldn't be so many people seeking to
> > establish
> > > >>>> policies.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> R.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> R.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> On Nov 15, 2013 2:29 PM, "Snail"
> > <snailtsunami at gmail.com <mailto:snailtsunami at gmail.com>>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>>>>> On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 11:13 AM, jim
> > > >>>> <jim at systemateka.com <mailto:jim at systemateka.com>>
> > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>> As to females being harassed,
> > for cases of
> > > >>>>>> crude coppings of feels, I dislike
> > taht female
> > > >>>>>> turning to the community for
> > support; I would
> > > >>>>>> eagerly defend any female who
> hauled
> > off and
> > > >>>>>> slugged whoever copped a feel
> or to
> > go get
> > > >> some
> > > >>>>>> friends and return to verbally
> > educate the
> > > >>>>>> offender: it's dis-empowering to
> > perceive
> > > >> one's
> > > >>>>>> self as a victim and turn to a
> > community for
> > > >>>>>> support for what is an individual
> > incident.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Whoa - whoa whoa whoa - whoaaaaa...
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Time out - did you really just say that
> > women who get
> > > >>>> groped
> > > >>>>>> ("cases of crude coppings of feels")
> should
> > not ask
> > > >> the
> > > >>>>>> community to help them out? And you
> believe
> > that it's
> > > >>>>>> disempowering somehow??
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> And that people should just punch
> people or
> > deal with
> > > >> it
> > > >>>> on
> > > >>>>>> their own? Is this really what you're
> > suggesting?
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> There will be no way fully to
> > suppress
> > > >> such
> > > >>>>>> actions taken by horney and
> > inconsiderate
> > > >>>>>> personages, policies and rules and
> > committee
> > > >>>>>> resolutions aside (far, far
> aside, I
> > hope).
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> I can't even. Here's a good way to
> suppress
> > the
> > > >> actions of
> > > >>>>>> "horney" or inconsiderate people:
> never let
> > them back
> > > >> in
> > > >>>>>> Noisebridge because that's a terrible
> excuse
> > for their
> > > >>>>>> actions!
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Please ask yourself if you are
> > prone to
> > > >>>>>> express yourself when you believe
> > you have the
> > > >>>>>> "high ground" and can properly
> scold
> > others.
> > > >> I.e.,
> > > >>>>>> are you living too much with
> anger?
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> With the rage of a thousand burning stars.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> TO EVERYONE ELSE READING THIS - There are
> > lots of
> > > >> people
> > > >>>> in
> > > >>>>>> the community at large who will help
> you out
> > if
> > > >> someone is
> > > >>>>>> creeping on you or worse, whether you are
> > "taht
> > > >> females"
> > > >>>> or
> > > >>>>>> just a plain ol' human being! Don't
> let what
> > Jim says
> > > >>>> dissuade
> > > >>>>>> you from reporting harassment or
> assault or
> > pointing
> > > >> out
> > > >>>>>> creepers! This is not an opinion everyone
> > here
> > > >> carries.
> > > >>>> Please
> > > >>>>>> don't ever feel like it's your fault
> or that
> > you're
> > > >>>> required
> > > >>>>>> to punch people - it's a valid and
> rational
> > response
> > > >> to
> > > >>>> remove
> > > >>>>>> yourself from a dangerous situation
> and try
> > to sort
> > > >> things
> > > >>>> out
> > > >>>>>> later from a safe place rather than
> confront
> > your
> > > >>>>>> harasser/assaulter. If someone is creeping
> > on you,
> > > >> they
> > > >>>> are
> > > >>>>>> pretty much always creeping on OTHERS,
> too,
> > so you are
> > > >> not
> > > >>>>>> alone or stuck in some isolated personal
> > incident! And
> > > >> as
> > > >>>> a
> > > >>>>>> community we can try to make Noisebridge a
> > safer place
> > > >> for
> > > >>>>>> everyone.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Also, women really appreciate being called
> > women and
> > > >> not
> > > >>>>>> "females". Do you go around saying "the
> > males" when
> > > >>>> referring
> > > >>>>>> to men? Probably not.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Angry forever,
> > > >>>>>> Snail
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>>
> -Snailssnailssnailssnailssnailssnailssnails
> > > >>>>>> ............. _ at y
> > > >>>>>>
> http://obamaischeckingyouremail.tumblr.com/
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > _______________________________________________
> > > >>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> > > >>>>>>
> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> <mailto:Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>
> >
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> > > >> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> <mailto:Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>
> > > >>
> >
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> > > > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> <mailto:Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>
> > > >
> >
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> > > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> <mailto:Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>
> > >
> >
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> <mailto:Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>
> >
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>
>
>
>
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